Cruz, Palin join protesters at WWII Memorial[W:793:1010:1190]

Grant said:

You don't know what "Nazi" means and are unfamiliar with the history of the US Democrats?

Click to expand...

Grant said:

That's quite likely because "Leftists" , Progressives", "Socialists", "Communists", "Nazis", "Fascists". etc. keep changing their names as soon as their agenda and history are exposed.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

It was NINETEEN-OH-EIGHT. You really think conservatives of that time period had super-enlightened ideas about race?

Click to expand...

I realize that everything bad in the universe, you will attempt to pin on "the left," but at least try to show a shred of intellectual honesty.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

This is the part in the conversation when, having displayed that the notion that racism is somehow exclusive province of "the left" is sheer nonsense, I am accused of calling all conservatives racists. I've had this discussion a million times.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

This doesn't make a lick of sense, and it makes even less sense when taken in the context of the conversation between Gardener and I.

Click to expand...

Grant said:

They certainly did. They'd fought a Civil War against it and the Democrats just 50 years earlier.

Click to expand...

Grant said:

Do you also realize how the left tends to hyperbole?

Click to expand...

Grant said:

Perhaps those who aren't 'of the left' have simply grown tired of these accusations of 'racism' when politics are discussed. Even criticizing the jackass in the White House is being called racist. That is the last refuge of those who still insist on defending failed political theories and policies.

Click to expand...

Grant said:

When policies and theories fail there is usually a great deal of denial from those who originally supported them. They either say there weren't employed properly or deny their involvement. We see that repeatedly.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

American Federation of Labor Convention Receives Council Report Urging Nazi Boycott | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

So once again, you're proven miserably wrong.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

So the North was "conservative," and the South was "liberal?"

Click to expand...

Now it's hyperbole that's exclusive province of "the left." And around and around we go.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

I don't think that's remotely true either. This conversation isn't and hasn't been about "all tea partiers are racist." This is a stupid pissing match after I made an offhanded comment with a derisive nickname toward Sarah Palin and Grant and Jack Hays went off the deep end.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

Please link to where I called conservatives racist, or said that any criticism of Obama is racist. I'll wait.

Click to expand...

APACHERAT said:

Interesting you left out the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) now part the AFL-CIO.

In 1941 the CIO organized wild cat strikes on the docks and war plants all across America to stop war supplies from reaching Great Britain during the "Battle of Britain."
The most famous would probably be the strike at North American Aviation in 1941 who were manufacturing P-51's for the RAF. President Roosevelt had to send in the U.S. Army and send the workers back to work at bayonet point.

But soon after comrade Hitler would buggerize fellow comrade Stalin and attack the Soviet Union.

This caused the political left in America to go totally berserk. "How could one fellow socialist comrade (Hitler) attack another socialist comrade (Stalin) !!! " Remember that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were allies up to this time.

The political left had to think fast and distance themselves from Hitler and the Nationalist Socialist Party. They had to resort to revisionism to hide their connections to their fellow socialist comrade Hitler.

One of the first things that needed to be done was to stop school children using the "Bellamy salute" (aka the Nazi salute) while pledging their allegiance to the flag. Bellamy was an American socialist who authored the Pledge to Allegiance in America. You see, there are two types of socialism, internationalist and nationalist. Progressive socialist until recently were nationalist socialist like the Nazi Nationalist Socialist Party.

Pick up a history book published before 1940 and the Nazis were labeled left wing not right wing. Revisionism would rewrite the history so the political left could hide their connections to Nazism.

Click to expand...

The flag code was codified into law during Roosevelt’s presidency but he appears to have had little to do with it. Certainly, the hand-over-heart salute was not done “in honor of the blood that was being shed by our sons and daughters in far of places,” as Romney put it.

The problem was the salute that had been traditionally associated with the pledge had begun to look very much like the Nazi salute — and the United States was then at war with Germany.

Francis Bellamy, who wrote the pledge in 1892, had included instructions for the salute while reciting the pledge. For decades, children were taught to salute the flag with their arms straight out, with the palm up. (Click here for images.)

Years later, German Nazis and Italian fascists adopted salutes that looked similar to the Bellamy salute. Increasingly, some school districts, especially in New York, became uncomfortable with using the Bellamy salute, according to Richard J. Ellis, a professor at Willamette University, in his 2005 book, “To the Flag: The Unlikely History of the Pledge of Allegiance.”

Some school districts dropped the Bellamy salute, but it did not become an issue until Congress in June of 1942 passed a law mandating the Bellamy salute for use with the pledge. Suddenly, school districts found themselves not in compliance with the law and backlash developed.

(There was also a counter backlash, led by the Daughters of the American Revolution, which decried changing an American tradition in response to the “propaganda [of] alien foes.”)

Ultimately, Congress amended the law just six months later, in December of 1942, and adopted what was known as the “hand-over-heart” salute, supposedly attributed to President Abraham Lincoln.

Ellis credits the inclusion of the “Lincoln salute” to the lobbying work of Gridley Adams, then head of the United States Flag Foundation. Adams was especially upset that the original version of the law said the U.S. flag always needed to be on a staff or hung flat against a wall — which had hurt flag sales. (Adams had promoted a flag that could be hung on a hook.) Ellis suggests Adams “seriously misled” Congress about whether the Lincoln salute had even been discussed at a 1924 flag conference that helped determine much of the flag code.

Roosevelt’s role, if any, appears to have been minimal, notwithstanding a Wikipedia entry that, without citing a source, says he was responsible for the shift. (Roosevelt, after all, also had signed the first piece of legislation, which mandated the Bellamy salute with the pledge.)

Ellis, in an e-mail, said he was unaware of “any such declaration by him [FDR] or anybody in his administration” to call for Americans to put their hands over their hearts during the National Anthem. He noted that one historian wrote that the Star-Spangled Banner, which made its first appearance at a sporting event during the 1918 World Series, became ubiquitous during World War II in movie theaters and sporting events — especially because team owners did not want anyone to question the patriotism of the athletes who had not joined the military.

Click to expand...

Grant said:

My God, man!! Where did I say you called conservatives racist?? It was an observation and, I believe, an honest one. You cn see it on this thread. Captain Courtesy (??) said conservatives were stormfront and another said the Tea Party was racist, and so it goes. I don;t know whether these people are stupid or just don't have a regard for the facts.

Please respond only to what I say and not what you think I may have implied. It makes debate so much easier.

Dinnertime. Enjoy a good evening!

Click to expand...

Jack Hays said:

I merely noted your comment was representative of the customary misogyny of the left.

Click to expand...

Grant said:

It was Republican versus Democrat.

Click to expand...

Grant said:

Do you really believe Democrats are 'liberal' in the traditional sense?

Click to expand...

Grant said:

In fact I never said that, which makes genuine debate with a 'liberal' etc. quite difficult.

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. It would be wrong, of course, but that's one way to look at it.

The Battle of Britain was 1940, not 1941, and for the most part labor didn't want much part of the war. But you're simply making stuff up about the labor unions idolizing Hitler in anyway. Hitler WAS NOT A SOCIALIST and was not liked by socialists, no matter how many times you want to repeat that lie. Talk about revisionism. Yeesh.

You are simply fabricating things out of thin air or, more likely, regurgitating what some nimrod fabricated out of thin air.

As for the Bellamy salute, you're really reaching. The Bellamy salute was adopted in the U.S. in 1892, and a similar salute was co-opted by the Italian fascists and the Nazis in the 1920s and 1930s. It was eliminated when the U.S. amended the Flag Code in 1942 and replaced it with the hand-over-heart gesture -- yes, something that was probably done to divorce itself from association with the Nazis and fascists, but if you think this was some move by the "political left" to whitewash their admiration for Hitler, you're smoking some serious funny stuff.

Bellamy salute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mitt Romney’s misfire on the national anthem - The Washington Post

(Ignore the Romney stuff at the top; the actual history of the Bellamy salute, as opposed to APACHERAT's made-up version, is lower in the article)

Click to expand...

Grant said:

That's quite likely because "Leftists" , Progressives", "Socialists", "Communists", "Nazis", "Fascists". etc. keep changing their names as soon as their agenda and history are exposed.

Click to expand...

APACHERAT said:

Excerpts:

>" Curran is a vice-president of the CIO, owing this place to Murray and Lewis. From time to time he denies communist affiliations. In the spring of 1941, however, he was one of the leaders of the communist-front anti-war organization known as the American Peace Mobilization whose picketing of the White House ceased with the Nazi attack on Soviet Russia, and the resulting change in the party line. "<


>" Since Hitler turned on Stalin, there have been no strikes comparable to the North American Aviation, the strike of die casters at the Aluminum Company of America, the seventy-one-day strike at Allis-Chalmers, and the left wing woodworkers' strike in the northwest. From opposition to the defense program, including Lend-Lease, the communists have swung towards direct intervention by the United States in the war. The unions in which the communists and their fellow travelers have influence echo these changed sentiments. "<

>" Communist leadership and party line followers tend to identify themselves by a simple pattern—namely, their swings back and forth with the foreign policy of the Soviet Union. Thus when the USSR was for collective security against fascist aggression, resolutions along these lines appeared like magic at all meetings dominated by communists and their fellow travelers. The Hitler-Stalin pact in 1939 turned a new page in Soviet policy and the party line swung in another direction. American communist literature then omitted the previous anti-fascist slogans and denounced "the war between two imperialisms," with special attacks on the role of the British in India, Africa, and other colonies. Anti-war propaganda was circulated in the United States, support of the American defense effort was ignored and emphasis was placed on the grievances of employee in defense industries. The disparate wage scales and pay classifications in some plants, notably in the aircraft industry, played directly into the hands of left wing elements. The employee in these plants had just grievances which should have been redressed. The workers themselves, many just out of highschool and entirely lacking in trade union experience, were easily led. There was no reason for them to suspect ulterior motives, particularly when their grievances were being agitated by union officials. What the young employees did not know at first was that many of these officials were also party line followers "<

>" Had the North American Aviation strike stood by itself it might have been a lone example of communist activity and possibly an exceptional one. However, it was apparent that left wing forces, through their own "underground" had fixed a pattern for such cases. Soon afterwards the National Die Casters Union, affiliated with the CIO, was involved in a strike at the Aluminum Company of America's plant in Cleveland. In this instance the same procedure as that followed in the North American strike took place. "<

Tares in the Wheat

Click to expand...

NIMBY said:

That viable 3rd party of Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 finally rid us of the Radical/Elite/Gilded Republicans dating back to Lincoln's murder..
And it wasn't Wilson who gave us the necessary 16 and 17th amendments .

Click to expand...

APACHERAT said:

Your falling back on foreign slang.

What's next, that the socialist and labor unions in America during the 1930's and early 40's didn't consider Hitler a socialist comrade ?

Click to expand...

Grant said:

They certainly did. They'd fought a Civil War against it and the Democrats just 50 years earlier.


Do you also realize how the left tends to hyperbole?

Click to expand...

Kobie said:

Yes, there were American communists; in the years after the Gilded Age, Communism and Marxism were pretty popular theories among the working class.

However, communism was hardly indicative of the mindset of the "political left," as you say, as a whole. You're taking a select few people, especially ones that ascribe to an ideology that has basically become a dirty word in the U.S., and are trying to ascribe their beliefs to the whole of the "political left," which is, again, stunningly intellectually dishonest.

And this still does nothing to prove that the CIO went on strike to help Hitler. And I will take the fact that you completely ignored my previous points regarding the AFL and the flag salute as your tacit admission of defeat regarding them.

Click to expand...