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Thread: Cruz, Palin join protesters at WWII Memorial[W:793:1010:1190]

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I merely noted your comment was representative of the customary misogyny of the left.
    And I merely noted that your comment was wrong. There is no "customary misogyny of the left" that is not equaled or exceeded by "the right." And I don't see how a derisive nickname that doesn't demean based on gender is "misogyny" at all.

    If it's misogynist to refer to Palin as "Caribou Barbie" (an obvious jab at her Alaskan background), then it's misogynist to refer to Michelle Obama as "Moochelle," which is a pretty common nickname for her among right-wing troglodytes.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It was Republican versus Democrat.
    It was. Which has very little whatsoever to do with the parties' respective ideologies and platforms today. I do not get why this is so hard for you to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Do you really believe Democrats are 'liberal' in the traditional sense?
    You mean at this current point? Not really, I think they're just as much of corporate stooges and warmongers as the Republicans. Which is a big reason I'm not a registered Democrat anymore and haven't been for almost a decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    In fact I never said that, which makes genuine debate with a 'liberal' etc. quite difficult.
    The implication was clear.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. It would be wrong, of course, but that's one way to look at it.

    The Battle of Britain was 1940, not 1941, and for the most part labor didn't want much part of the war. But you're simply making stuff up about the labor unions idolizing Hitler in anyway. Hitler WAS NOT A SOCIALIST and was not liked by socialists, no matter how many times you want to repeat that lie. Talk about revisionism. Yeesh.

    You are simply fabricating things out of thin air or, more likely, regurgitating what some nimrod fabricated out of thin air.

    As for the Bellamy salute, you're really reaching. The Bellamy salute was adopted in the U.S. in 1892, and a similar salute was co-opted by the Italian fascists and the Nazis in the 1920s and 1930s. It was eliminated when the U.S. amended the Flag Code in 1942 and replaced it with the hand-over-heart gesture -- yes, something that was probably done to divorce itself from association with the Nazis and fascists, but if you think this was some move by the "political left" to whitewash their admiration for Hitler, you're smoking some serious funny stuff.

    Bellamy salute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mitt Romney’s misfire on the national anthem - The Washington Post

    (Ignore the Romney stuff at the top; the actual history of the Bellamy salute, as opposed to APACHERAT's made-up version, is lower in the article)

    Excerpts:

    >" Curran is a vice-president of the CIO, owing this place to Murray and Lewis. From time to time he denies communist affiliations. In the spring of 1941, however, he was one of the leaders of the communist-front anti-war organization known as the American Peace Mobilization whose picketing of the White House ceased with the Nazi attack on Soviet Russia, and the resulting change in the party line. "<


    >" Since Hitler turned on Stalin, there have been no strikes comparable to the North American Aviation, the strike of die casters at the Aluminum Company of America, the seventy-one-day strike at Allis-Chalmers, and the left wing woodworkers' strike in the northwest. From opposition to the defense program, including Lend-Lease, the communists have swung towards direct intervention by the United States in the war. The unions in which the communists and their fellow travelers have influence echo these changed sentiments. "<

    >" Communist leadership and party line followers tend to identify themselves by a simple pattern—namely, their swings back and forth with the foreign policy of the Soviet Union. Thus when the USSR was for collective security against fascist aggression, resolutions along these lines appeared like magic at all meetings dominated by communists and their fellow travelers. The Hitler-Stalin pact in 1939 turned a new page in Soviet policy and the party line swung in another direction. American communist literature then omitted the previous anti-fascist slogans and denounced "the war between two imperialisms," with special attacks on the role of the British in India, Africa, and other colonies. Anti-war propaganda was circulated in the United States, support of the American defense effort was ignored and emphasis was placed on the grievances of employee in defense industries. The disparate wage scales and pay classifications in some plants, notably in the aircraft industry, played directly into the hands of left wing elements. The employee in these plants had just grievances which should have been redressed. The workers themselves, many just out of highschool and entirely lacking in trade union experience, were easily led. There was no reason for them to suspect ulterior motives, particularly when their grievances were being agitated by union officials. What the young employees did not know at first was that many of these officials were also party line followers "<

    >" Had the North American Aviation strike stood by itself it might have been a lone example of communist activity and possibly an exceptional one. However, it was apparent that left wing forces, through their own "underground" had fixed a pattern for such cases. Soon afterwards the National Die Casters Union, affiliated with the CIO, was involved in a strike at the Aluminum Company of America's plant in Cleveland. In this instance the same procedure as that followed in the North American strike took place. "<

    Tares in the Wheat

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's quite likely because "Leftists" , Progressives", "Socialists", "Communists", "Nazis", "Fascists". etc. keep changing their names as soon as their agenda and history are exposed.
    Though Teddy Roosevelt was the first "progressive" Woodrow Wilson was the one that decided to really break away from the Constitution. He was a Fabian Socialist. I located his unpublished paper Socialism and Democracy at Hillsdale College.

    https://online.hillsdale.edu/document.doc?id=278

    But you are so correct in that the name changing has been going on for 100 years. The left took the term liberal and bastardized it. There is nothing about the left's agenda that stands for classical liberalism. You can not be a liberal in the classic sense and be for big government. But when folks became educated knowing the difference, they decided to call themselves progressives. Well Democrat Woodrow Wilson who served during the Progressive Era was a Socialist.

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    Excerpts:

    >" Curran is a vice-president of the CIO, owing this place to Murray and Lewis. From time to time he denies communist affiliations. In the spring of 1941, however, he was one of the leaders of the communist-front anti-war organization known as the American Peace Mobilization whose picketing of the White House ceased with the Nazi attack on Soviet Russia, and the resulting change in the party line. "<


    >" Since Hitler turned on Stalin, there have been no strikes comparable to the North American Aviation, the strike of die casters at the Aluminum Company of America, the seventy-one-day strike at Allis-Chalmers, and the left wing woodworkers' strike in the northwest. From opposition to the defense program, including Lend-Lease, the communists have swung towards direct intervention by the United States in the war. The unions in which the communists and their fellow travelers have influence echo these changed sentiments. "<

    >" Communist leadership and party line followers tend to identify themselves by a simple pattern—namely, their swings back and forth with the foreign policy of the Soviet Union. Thus when the USSR was for collective security against fascist aggression, resolutions along these lines appeared like magic at all meetings dominated by communists and their fellow travelers. The Hitler-Stalin pact in 1939 turned a new page in Soviet policy and the party line swung in another direction. American communist literature then omitted the previous anti-fascist slogans and denounced "the war between two imperialisms," with special attacks on the role of the British in India, Africa, and other colonies. Anti-war propaganda was circulated in the United States, support of the American defense effort was ignored and emphasis was placed on the grievances of employee in defense industries. The disparate wage scales and pay classifications in some plants, notably in the aircraft industry, played directly into the hands of left wing elements. The employee in these plants had just grievances which should have been redressed. The workers themselves, many just out of highschool and entirely lacking in trade union experience, were easily led. There was no reason for them to suspect ulterior motives, particularly when their grievances were being agitated by union officials. What the young employees did not know at first was that many of these officials were also party line followers "<

    >" Had the North American Aviation strike stood by itself it might have been a lone example of communist activity and possibly an exceptional one. However, it was apparent that left wing forces, through their own "underground" had fixed a pattern for such cases. Soon afterwards the National Die Casters Union, affiliated with the CIO, was involved in a strike at the Aluminum Company of America's plant in Cleveland. In this instance the same procedure as that followed in the North American strike took place. "<

    Tares in the Wheat
    Yes, there were American communists; in the years after the Gilded Age, Communism and Marxism were pretty popular theories among the working class.

    However, communism was hardly indicative of the mindset of the "political left," as you say, as a whole. You're taking a select few people, especially ones that ascribe to an ideology that has basically become a dirty word in the U.S., and are trying to ascribe their beliefs to the whole of the "political left," which is, again, stunningly intellectually dishonest.

    And this still does nothing to prove that the CIO went on strike to help Hitler. And I will take the fact that you completely ignored my previous points regarding the AFL and the flag salute as your tacit admission of defeat regarding them.
    Last edited by Kobie; 10-21-13 at 12:08 AM.
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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    That viable 3rd party of Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 finally rid us of the Radical/Elite/Gilded Republicans dating back to Lincoln's murder..
    And it wasn't Wilson who gave us the necessary 16 and 17th amendments .
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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    That viable 3rd party of Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 finally rid us of the Radical/Elite/Gilded Republicans dating back to Lincoln's murder..
    And it wasn't Wilson who gave us the necessary 16 and 17th amendments .

    What Wilson did give us is a sprawling web of agencies run by Elites. Washington is really run by an unconstitutional fourth branch of government: unelected bureaucrats. These so called “experts” make the rules and combine the powers of all three branches of government. They make the rules (legislative), interpret the rules (judicial), and enforce the rules (executive).
    Policymaking today, in many areas on the national stage such as the environment, health care, and financial regulation, is done primarily by agencies within the bureaucracy to which Congress has delegated much legislative authority. After Wilson we became governed by the rule of regulators. It doesn't have to be that way. We need to return to being governed by the rule of law where our representatives can hammer things out and answer to us. But that can't happen fairly when the regulators (unelected bureaucrats) are making the rules.
    Last edited by vesper; 10-21-13 at 12:45 AM.

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    Your falling back on foreign slang.

    What's next, that the socialist and labor unions in America during the 1930's and early 40's didn't consider Hitler a socialist comrade ?
    Are you serious? You do know that the first people Hitler sent to Dachau in the 30's were union leaders and socialists, right? No, never mind....what am I thinking. For you to know that would have meant you'd have to read a real history book instead of these Far right extremist rags.
    "Groups with guitars are on the way out, Mr. Epstein"

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    They certainly did. They'd fought a Civil War against it and the Democrats just 50 years earlier.


    Do you also realize how the left tends to hyperbole?
    The conservatives weren't the ones who fought the Civil War. Ending of slavery was a liberal concept. It was those good old southern conservatives that wanted to maintain the status quo. How many votes do you thing Abraham Lincoln would receive from conservatives if he was alive today? He was the creator of the concept that the Federal Government was superior to state governments. He redefined the nation, and fought a war to establish it.

    A piece of advice - just get yourself a U.S. History text book and read it. You'll be stunned at what you discover.
    Last edited by Wiggen; 10-21-13 at 02:51 AM.
    "Groups with guitars are on the way out, Mr. Epstein"

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    Decca Records
    London, 1962

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    Re: Vets take down barricades in Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Yes, there were American communists; in the years after the Gilded Age, Communism and Marxism were pretty popular theories among the working class.

    However, communism was hardly indicative of the mindset of the "political left," as you say, as a whole. You're taking a select few people, especially ones that ascribe to an ideology that has basically become a dirty word in the U.S., and are trying to ascribe their beliefs to the whole of the "political left," which is, again, stunningly intellectually dishonest.

    And this still does nothing to prove that the CIO went on strike to help Hitler. And I will take the fact that you completely ignored my previous points regarding the AFL and the flag salute as your tacit admission of defeat regarding them.
    He totally ignores any comment that goes against his basic theory of American life - namely that only right wing nutjobs are patriots and really care about the country and than everybody to the left of them is evil. Its a simplistic philosophy that suits a simple mind.
    "Groups with guitars are on the way out, Mr. Epstein"

    Dick Rowe, A & R man
    Decca Records
    London, 1962

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