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Thread: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Having state representatives in the federal parlaiment put in place by the legislator and not via elections sounds rather undemocratic to me.

    Your system of governance is similar to various other systems in democratic countries all accross the globe. The US is not the only country which is debating the question of powerbalance between state and central government and the size of your country does not make the debate in the US any different from the debates concerning this subject in countries such as Switzerland, France and Germany.
    My country is Canada but I take a direct interest in the States because what they do effects Canada, and the world. It is also the greatest social experiment in world history with aspirations of people from every part of the globe living in harmony and freedom. Of course those aspirations were never totally achieved but they seemed to be succeeding over time. Now they are losing from within what no nation could have done from without. I find that an historical tragedy.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Actualy, the healthcare policies within the varous countries of the EU are also administered individualy.

    In Germany and Austria for example healthcare is mostly administered by the states.

    In France and the UK healthcare is administered through federal bodies.
    That's my point. In the EU the member states all administer their own health care plans as they see fit. There is no central government dictating to them what they should and shouldn't have. In the US we have a huge central government dictating to the individual states what health care plans they need to provide to their citizens.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    That's my point. In the EU the member states all administer their own health care plans as they see fit. There is no central government dictating to them what they should and shouldn't have. In the US we have a huge central government dictating to the individual states what health care plans they need to provide to their citizens.
    But the EU is not a sovereign body. It is not the federal government of all member countries and it is not a country. So you cant just simply compare the healthcare programms, because first off there is none in the EU and secondly the EU is not compareable with the US.

    If anything you can compare the healthcare systems of individualy countries with the system of the US.

    Your entire argument based on a comparison of EU and USA is flawed because the EU is nothing like the USA.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    But the EU is not a sovereign body. It is not the federal government of all member countries and it is not a country. So you cant just simply compare the healthcare programms, because first off there is none in the EU and secondly the EU is not compareable with the US.

    If anything you can compare the healthcare systems of individualy countries with the system of the US.

    Your entire argument based on a comparison of EU and USA is flawed because the EU is nothing like the USA.
    That is what is being said repeatedly. Few here are actually interested in the EU and what it does.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    But the EU is not a sovereign body. It is not the federal government of all member countries and it is not a country. So you cant just simply compare the healthcare programms, because first off there is none in the EU and secondly the EU is not compareable with the US.

    If anything you can compare the healthcare systems of individualy countries with the system of the US.

    Your entire argument based on a comparison of EU and USA is flawed because the EU is nothing like the USA.
    No, it's not. But the EU is not a federal organization. This is why I said that we American conservatives seek a central federal government that is more robust than the EU but considerably smaller than the current US government. If anything the EU has shown how successful a group of like minded states can be with almost no central government. American liberals see limited central government as something akin to Somalia while the real example is ironically the model that liberals dream of. More powerful states, weaker central government and more state autonomy.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    No, it's not. But the EU is not a federal organization. This is why I said that we American conservatives seek a central federal government that is more robust than the EU but considerably smaller than the current US government. If anything the EU has shown how successful a group of like minded states can be with almost no central government. American liberals see limited central government as something akin to Somalia while the real example is ironically the model that liberals dream of. More powerful states, weaker central government and more state autonomy.
    Like minded??? Are you serious? Do you have clue on the differences between the various policies and systems and everything in the European countries????

    There is this old joke here amongst the German political left:

    "A German socialist wants basic housing and healthcare for everyone, A French socialist wants oysters, champagne and caviar for everyone."

    The conservatives in the UK legalised gay marrige, The conservatives in Germany are pro union, The conservatives in Poland are sometimes openly antisemetic, The conservatives in Spain sometimes deny climate change.

    There is hardly ever such a thing as "like minded thinking" amongst ideologies let alone countries here.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Like minded??? Are you serious? Do you have clue on the differences between the various policies and systems and everything in the European countries????
    I meant the agreement to operate under a single currency. Obviously there are a lot of differences between the various countries like there are a lot of ideological differences between Texas and California.

    There is this old joke here amongst the German political left:

    "A German socialist wants basic housing and healthcare for everyone, A French socialist wants oysters, champagne and caviar for everyone."

    The conservatives in the UK legalised gay marrige, The conservatives in Germany are pro union, The conservatives in Poland are sometimes openly antisemetic, The conservatives in Spain sometimes deny climate change.

    There is hardly ever such a thing as "like minded thinking" amongst ideologies let alone countries here.
    Yes, and conservatives in America want smaller central government, more autonomous state governments, and so on. If the US central government vanished the US wouldn't devolve into an anarchy like Somalia that has no real government at any level, it would be more like Europe before the EU.

    Back to my promise of explaining the the conservative viewpoint in the US. Consider the old psychological diagram of an individual's "locus of control" with internal and external areas that the individual controls. Think of the external controls being further arranged in concentric circles around the individual. With each successive circle outside the individual their control of that circle is less. So, say, family is the first external circle, followed by local government, then city government, then county, then state then federal and finally the world. The number of people with a say in the decision in a given circle grows with each successive circle so your actual say in any decision is therefor significantly less with each successive circle. So in family a democratic vote would be among a few people, a local community control board would be a few dozen, city a few thousand and so on up to the federal level where you are only one of millions making the decision.

    Likewise, with the growing number of people involved at each level, the solutions become increasingly less tailored to the individual's need. The Federal government knows less about your individual need than the state which is less than the city and so on. Moreover they CARE less than each nearer circle.

    A conservative believes the direct control that each circle should have over the individual should be inversely relational to your ability to influence it in return. This is why we support welfare and safety nets at the state level more than at the federal level, for instance, and charity over state welfare. Each successively smaller circle is better suited to meeting the needs of the individual because they understand them better.

    What we conservatives in America object to is the growing power of the Federal Government over the individual. The individual has almost no direct influence over the Federal government, leaving them all but helpless when the Federal Government is not serving their needs, or acting counter too them. We don't see this callousness on the part of the federal government as evil, necessarily but simply as the byproduct of a system that can't possibly meet the need of the individual and therefor substitutes the individual for some imaginary average or a person. So we object to Federal welfare to individuals and businesses because the Federal Government is the least equipped to make those decisions for the individual.

    Balancing that we conservatives accept that there are some controls over the individual that are not as individualistic in a civilized society. We don't accept that the choice to let your annoying neighbor live should be left in your hands. These universally applicable rules for a civil society are enforced by the central government because in that rare case uniformity is preferable to leaving it to the individual to choose there is no average in those cases. This exception would be what we consider to be "natural rights" (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness). We accept that these natural laws should be enforced by a central government because the GOAL of such enforcement is uniformity.

    Anyway, I hope that is fairly clear. It's the central justification for small government that is supported by most American conservatives. They may not explain it the same way I do though. :P
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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