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Thread: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Car insurance is imposed or not by the state you love in, not the federal government. Apple's and oranges really. Plus you have the privilege to drive. Are you people really trying to say that I am afforded life and liberty as a privilege?
    lol so if the federal government does something it's slavery, but if the state government does something, it's not? Clue #2 that you don't know what slavery means.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol so if the federal government does something it's slavery, but if the state government does something, it's not? Clue #2 that you don't know what slavery means.
    I asked a question you ignored, typical.

    Driving a car is a privilege, are you saying that my life and liberty are also a privilege granted by government?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I asked a question you ignored, typical.

    Driving a car is a privilege, are you saying that my life and liberty are also a privilege granted by government?
    I don't pay attention to your questions, because they have nothing to do with the point. I don't believe in natural rights at all, so everything other than the freedom to think what you want is a "privilege" granted by those around you.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Car insurance is imposed or not by the state you love in, not the federal government. Apple's and oranges really. Plus you have the privilege to drive. Are you people really trying to say that I am afforded life and liberty as a privilege?
    Who imposes it is of no meaning. If it is slavery (), then it's slavery by the state as well. This is called logic. And while it is true that you can opt out of driving a car by not driving, the premise is the same. There is no way to opt out of health. So, you become our burden when you don't insure yourself. You will find throughout history, and our history, of communities dealing with health issues in a communal way. Now, it was a little more possible to hide for the world out in the wilderness, die young, and not be a burden on others. But in the world today, we live close to one another, with many more ways to burden others by our poor choices. It is reasonable to address such issues. When the uninsured have the potential to burden others, it is reasonable to address that as a community, be it state or federal.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Who imposes it is of no meaning. If it is slavery (), then it's slavery by the state as well. This is called logic. And while it is true that you can opt out of driving a car by not driving, the premise is the same. There is no way to opt out of health. So, you become our burden when you don't insure yourself. You will find throughout history, and our history, of communities dealing with health issues in a communal way. Now, it was a little more possible to hide for the world out in the wilderness, die young, and not be a burden on others. But in the world today, we live close to one another, with many more ways to burden others by our poor choices. It is reasonable to address such issues. When the uninsured have the potential to burden others, it is reasonable to address that as a community, be it state or federal.
    And while I don't disagree with the premise that people can unknowlingly become a burden to society in various health ways, I do take exception with the method that is currently being used. Fraud and waste has been rampant with the implementation of the ACA.

    Not only that, it doesn't tackle one of the leading burdens on society which is obesity. Yes, smokers should end up paying more for their health insurance, but so should those that are severely overweight or others that have conditions that would make them a burden on society.

    For instance, a neighbor of a friend that lives in an apartment is currently on unemployment. The guy weighs over 300 pounds and has health issue. That person is currently a burden on society healthwise, yet he is given free medical and there are NO consequences for his actions. How is that correct?

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And while I don't disagree with the premise that people can unknowlingly become a burden to society in various health ways, I do take exception with the method that is currently being used. Fraud and waste has been rampant with the implementation of the ACA.

    Not only that, it doesn't tackle one of the leading burdens on society which is obesity. Yes, smokers should end up paying more for their health insurance, but so should those that are severely overweight or others that have conditions that would make them a burden on society.

    For instance, a neighbor of a friend that lives in an apartment is currently on unemployment. The guy weighs over 300 pounds and has health issue. That person is currently a burden on society healthwise, yet he is given free medical and there are NO consequences for his actions. How is that correct?
    2 things about fraud and waste:

    1) there usually are a smaller part of the problem in anything.

    2) there will always be fraud and waste no matter the system.

    No one is for fraud and waste. Every effort should be continued and improved to combat it. But that won't eliminate the need for reform.

    As for the problems, we have a huge problem here. If you think making people pay for coverage is a struggle, consider mandating anything concerning just obesity alone, let alone other risk factors. We have had no consequences for your neighbor for decades. And no rational plan for dealing with him. At least if he were covered to begin with, the medical industry wouldn't have to factor him into their overcharging.

    ACA isn't perfect, but any effort to deal with this problem is automatically demonized by someone. The only thing I credit this administration for is passing something, no matter how ugly. If we all looked at it as a start, and rolled up our sleeves, I think we could improve it. Maybe even find something we all could accept.

    But few things start out perfect. We shouldn't expect it to.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    2 things about fraud and waste:

    1) there usually are a smaller part of the problem in anything.

    2) there will always be fraud and waste no matter the system.

    No one is for fraud and waste. Every effort should be continued and improved to combat it. But that won't eliminate the need for reform.
    Yes, I'm aware there is fraud and waste in any system, but come on this is ridiculous. The website crap alone was unacceptable and who has been fired for it? Noone.

    As for the problems, we have a huge problem here. If you think making people pay for coverage is a struggle, consider mandating anything concerning just obesity alone, let alone other risk factors. We have had no consequences for your neighbor for decades. And no rational plan for dealing with him. At least if he were covered to begin with, the medical industry wouldn't have to factor him into their overcharging.
    Yet, it's ok to just make smokers pay an increase? That's what I'm getting at. I would agree with you if they didn't demonize anyone and made everyone pay the same, however, they go after smokers and the excuse is that they live a lifestyle that causes problems later on in life healthcare wise and that's why they should pay more. Well, the same thing can be said about obescity right? If you're going to have a system ALREADY going after smokers, why shouldn't it go after a LEADING health care issue like obesity?

    ACA isn't perfect, but any effort to deal with this problem is automatically demonized by someone. The only thing I credit this administration for is passing something, no matter how ugly. If we all looked at it as a start, and rolled up our sleeves, I think we could improve it. Maybe even find something we all could accept.

    But few things start out perfect. We shouldn't expect it to.
    Again, I understand that things need to be fixed, but it is a two sided problem. Health care costs and health care availability. They have to be worked TOGETHER. You can't just do the availability part without first also addressing the costs. ACA doesn't address the costs and in fact has made it worse for MILLIONS of Americans.

    Sorry, but the ACA is not the answer either. Now, don't get me wrong, I am against the bill but I am not FOR the tricks the GOP tried to pull to get rid of it either. If people want to get rid of it, they will elect people to do so.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yes, I'm aware there is fraud and waste in any system, but come on this is ridiculous. The website crap alone was unacceptable and who has been fired for it? Noone.
    Not really a matter of fraud and waste. More incompetence.

    Yet, it's ok to just make smokers pay an increase? That's what I'm getting at. I would agree with you if they didn't demonize anyone and made everyone pay the same, however, they go after smokers and the excuse is that they live a lifestyle that causes problems later on in life healthcare wise and that's why they should pay more. Well, the same thing can be said about obescity right? If you're going to have a system ALREADY going after smokers, why shouldn't it go after a LEADING health care issue like obesity?
    OK? People are still angry about it. The fact is, these things are unpopular here. It would be more difficult legislate it here.

    Again, I understand that things need to be fixed, but it is a two sided problem. Health care costs and health care availability. They have to be worked TOGETHER. You can't just do the availability part without first also addressing the costs. ACA doesn't address the costs and in fact has made it worse for MILLIONS of Americans.

    Sorry, but the ACA is not the answer either. Now, don't get me wrong, I am against the bill but I am not FOR the tricks the GOP tried to pull to get rid of it either. If people want to get rid of it, they will elect people to do so.
    I don't think ACA has actually made things worse. The best I can tell is a few states did a poor job with implementation. others did a good job. California looks wildly high, but Iowa has noticed very little change, for example. There is really no reason for insurance costs to increase.

    And yes, it is a two pronged problem. And no, ACA has not done enough for either access or cost IMHO. But, I disagree that there has been any real bipartisan efforts made. Nor has any decent work been done to improve ACA.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not really a matter of fraud and waste. More incompetence.
    The amount paid for the website should be criminal.

    OK? People are still angry about it. The fact is, these things are unpopular here. It would be more difficult legislate it here.
    Fact is, wrong is still wrong. It is no more difficult than treating ALL smokers the same as they do now. If you smoke, you pay higher. If you are obese, you pay higher.

    I don't think ACA has actually made things worse. The best I can tell is a few states did a poor job with implementation. others did a good job. California looks wildly high, but Iowa has noticed very little change, for example. There is really no reason for insurance costs to increase.
    Well "better" I suppose is a matter of opinion, but I don't see how people paying higher for their insurance (or losing their insurance) is somehow better. You can try to justify the reasons for that all you want, but it hasn't made it better.

    And yes, it is a two pronged problem. And no, ACA has not done enough for either access or cost IMHO. But, I disagree that there has been any real bipartisan efforts made. Nor has any decent work been done to improve ACA.
    That is because some feel that ACA is going in the wrong direction all together. During the Bush years some on the left didn't "work with" Bush on the Iraq, they wanted to pull out all together. When people feel something is completely wrong, "working" to make it better isn't an option.

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    Re: Dr. Carson: Obamacare The Worst Thing That Has Happened Since Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The amount paid for the website should be criminal.
    Perhaps.

    Fact is, wrong is still wrong. It is no more difficult than treating ALL smokers the same as they do now. If you smoke, you pay higher. If you are obese, you pay higher.
    That may be, but smokers still cost us more, even more than they pay in. The list can be rather long, and at the end of they day, we can actually charge next to everyone more.

    Well "better" I suppose is a matter of opinion, but I don't see how people paying higher for their insurance (or losing their insurance) is somehow better. You can try to justify the reasons for that all you want, but it hasn't made it better.
    The thing is, a lot of this isn't really linked to ACA. It's just sold that way. PBS recently showed how much of this would have happened even without ACA. Remember, they were dropping people from insurance and raising premiums long before Obama even took office. So, while no one would are those are bad things, or that ACA stopped them (though there is little logical reason for them based on ACA), when the smoke clears and the panic subsides, things make actually look better.

    That is because some feel that ACA is going in the wrong direction all together. During the Bush years some on the left didn't "work with" Bush on the Iraq, they wanted to pull out all together. When people feel something is completely wrong, "working" to make it better isn't an option.
    That may be, but it's unproductive. Even though I don't think the comparison fully works, we could have worked with Bush to end the conflict. Found a compromise, a better argument. Here we have a law, in place, surviving challenges, and the best way forward is to go to work. Stubborn contrariness hasn't been effective with either.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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