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Thread: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus



    Let me start off by saying that I am as big an atheist as they come. I have no belief in gods or any mythology associated with them. I choose facts and empirical evidence over faith. However, I find there is a strong amount of evidence from both primary and secondary sources to support the claims of a figured called Jesus during the 1st century C.E. Not only do I find there is a strong amount of evidence, I would even concede he was, in his time, a moderately popular religious figure.

    That said, we now enter a path led by people both secular and religious who do not understand how researching works. Every time I turn on the History Channel there is some ridiculous show promoting Atlantis, aliens or bigfoot. Every time I hear some Christian on TV telling millions that humans and dinosaurs walk together, I cringe. Every time I read about the latest Muslim scholar proclaiming that Islamic scholars in the 5th century understood the workings of the Big Bang, I laugh. Every time I hear some hippie claim that Mayans/Aztecs/Nostradamus predicted great catastrophes in the 21st century, I simply walk away.

    This is the abomination we've been lead to by allowing anybody to call their copy & paste jobs "theories". We now live in a world where the most spurious associations of secondary sources can be considered to be enough for a "theory". The media in general has been invaded by a freemarket phylosophy. If it's stupid but it sells, it's not stupid. The media has ignored the work of objective scientists (due to what I think is lack of attention grabbing headlines) and put any idiot on the stage to sell his latest book and documentary. I suspect it is because journals in these disciplines are at times boring to read. It's simply easier and far more profitable to grab the magical bits of a story put them in a blender and sell it to the highest bidding TV network.
    However much I've read on this, it's absurd to think that the Romans concocted 'Jesus' which they then went to oppose to control their own people which didn't work.
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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    You've got it backwards. Christianity was the last of a long line of similar stories, not the original by any stretch of the imagination. It's mythology just as the rest are.
    The point is there is an alternative view that can account for this.

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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    The point is there is an alternative view that can account for this.
    You're not making any sense, but that's okay, maybe another time.
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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by laska View Post
    In regards to aspects of Christ's life being in many other religions, if the gospel of Christ and knowledge of His mortal life was taught in it's purity from the beginning, then that would explain so many religions having similarities to the original.
    1.) its wasnt always "christ" there were many names and setups (immaculate conception, real conception),(son of god, god himself), (wise men, kings, sisterhood) etc etc
    2.) the so called birth, conceptions etc were 100s of years off
    3.) so that doesnt explain anything

    now mind you im still a christian but the platform for Christianity existed way before Christianity many times in many forms which makes everything suspect and even more thin that it already was.

    but im also not a person that must fake, believe or act it all has to be true. Thats NOT what religion is about nor does it need to be.
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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) its wasnt always "christ" there were many names and setups (immaculate conception, real conception),(son of god, god himself), (wise men, kings, sisterhood) etc etc
    2.) the so called birth, conceptions etc were 100s of years off
    3.) so that doesnt explain anything

    now mind you im still a christian but the platform for Christianity existed way before Christianity many times in many forms which makes everything suspect and even more thin that it already was.

    but im also not a person that must fake, believe or act it all has to be true. Thats NOT what religion is about nor does it need to be.


    Though there is some some very rare academic material ( Update on Historicity of Jesus » Richard Carrier Blogs ) taking up the mythicist position, it's usually stuff like what is mentioned in the OP and solely confined to pseudio-scientific crap relegated to the conspiracy section of the bookstore

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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Though there is some some very rare academic material ( Update on Historicity of Jesus » Richard Carrier Blogs ) taking up the mythicist position, it's usually stuff like what is mentioned in the OP and solely confined to pseudio-scientific crap relegated to the conspiracy section of the bookstore
    why did you quote me on this post?
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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    why did you quote me on this post?
    Because if you realize it or not, your basically voicing the mythicist position

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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    I always thought that it was entirely possible that a singular figure who did many or all of the things that Jesus is credited to do (minus the obviously false attribution of magic and miracles) didn't exist. There were, as has been previously said in this thread, many messiahs and prophets in the area at the time. It is not unreasonable at all that stories blended and were embellished over time. The story evolved, you might say, taking on the more successful characteristics and absorbing them into itself. It sounds an awful lot like memetic natural selection.

    That it was a deliberate fabrication, all done at once for a specific agenda, is far less reasonable than slow, gradual changes by many people, for a variety of reasons. We even know the source of some of the modifications, such as the famous Council of Nicaea, but also the origins for some of the elements, like the virgin birth and demigodhood of Jesus, both taken directly from Greek and Roman myths to better relate to those audiences. It's a very successful memetic story, drawing on inspiration and elements from many previous successful ones. I doubt very much that one single preacher named Joshua from Nazareth was actually at all of the events described in the gospels and did all the things he supposedly did. Probably its an amalgamation of half a dozen people's lives.

    But again, a deliberate fabrication is just silly. Conspiracy theories, which this is, are silly.
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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Because if you realize it or not, your basically voicing the mythicist position
    ok so it it had nothing to do with my post directly as usual since all (or at least a super vase majority) talk about religion is a mythicist position thanks
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    Re: Self-Professed ‘Bible Scholar’ Makes Explosive Allegation About Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) its wasnt always "christ" there were many names and setups (immaculate conception, real conception),(son of god, god himself), (wise men, kings, sisterhood) etc etc
    2.) the so called birth, conceptions etc were 100s of years off
    3.) so that doesnt explain anything

    now mind you im still a christian but the platform for Christianity existed way before Christianity many times in many forms which makes everything suspect and even more thin that it already was.

    but im also not a person that must fake, believe or act it all has to be true. Thats NOT what religion is about nor does it need to be.
    You and Summerwind are not understanding my point. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches that the gospel of Jesus Christ is eternal and existed prior to the creation of the earth. From a LDS perspective our spirits are the literal offspring of God and all of us existed and lived with our heavenly parents prior to being born on the earth. In the pre-mortal world God offered to us to accept or not the Plan of Salvation which entailed we fall and become mortal, use our free agency to choose between good and evil. The central part of the Plan of Salvation is that our eldest brother, God's first born, the great Jehovah volunteered to perform an Atonement so that the effects of the fall from eternal sphere, becoming mortal which brings death, could be overcome. Without an Atonement we couldn't on our own erase the fact that we will break laws that pertain to eternal light of our spirits, sow the seeds of death, as we have walked off the cliff and can't take back that fact.

    The LDS scriptures teach that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden they were commanded by God to sacrifice a first born male lamb without blemish on a routine basis. Later, maybe after several years of routinely doing this sacrifice God asked them if they knew why they were doing this. They said no. He then explained to them that this was symbolic of Christ who would be born in the future. They were taught the gospel of Christ in its fullness. They knew that the Savior would be born of a virgin, be the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, and a bunch of other details about His earthly mission that would come thousands of years later. Adam and Eve taught their offspring the gospel. Many of the offspring of Adam and Eve fell away from the true gospel, some never accepted it, many others left over time. The LDS believe there were even complete apostasies where the legal gospel from Heaven was no longer on the earth and the Heavens had to restore it.

    The LDS and many other Christians see the Old Testament as not a different religion from the NT religion but the same. The Old Testament is pre-Christ and is looking towards the Savior. The mood of the text is justice, because that is why we need a Savior, natural laws because of the fall have been broken. All the prophets testify of Christ and the Biblical characters are symbolic of Him. That is why you see so many similarities to stuff that happened in Jesus' mortal life and their lives. The NT is the Savior arriving in the world and the mood of the text is mercy. Anyway since Adam and Eve knew from the beginning many of the details of Jesus' life thousands of years before it happened, you would expect, if this is true, that there would be traces of the original religion found in later religions.
    Last edited by laska; 10-19-13 at 03:21 PM.

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