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Thread: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Problem is the US electoral system is not built for new parties and the fact that many people actually just vote D or R because that is what they always have done.

    Yes the brand is tainted, but with this shut down you have the ability to get rid of people. Look at the shut down under Clinton. Newt was a dictator and highly unpopular among "mainstream" GOPers, but he had the media's eye and came on a wave of change. In the end Clinton got 8 years and is one of the most successful US Presidents in the last 40 years, and where is Newt and all his plans? Out on his ass because his own party hung him and many of his followers out to dry because the GOP was getting blamed for the shut down and in reality he got very little done.

    Like it or not, the GOP (and the Dems) have always lived on the "next big thing" to keep power. They had Reagan, and then lost power due to Bush 1.. and then they got Newt to rally the faithful to take out Clinton and failed. Newt got kicked to the curb and the next hero was the neo-Con Bush 2. Once that became a bad seed also, then they dropped him as fast as they could and went for the next possible rally point.. the Tea Party. It worked some what after a black guy got elected in the White House, but since that they could not use the Tea Party mantra and ideas to defeat Obama in the 2012 elections, and actually LOST seats in an election they had predicted to gain seats on top of what they got in the protest election of 2010.. So now they are dumping the Tea Party and its members.

    Point is, the GOP has done this before, dumped former popular rallying points/people and then revitalized themselves. It takes time, and does not happen over night. The GOP will most likely loose seats across the board next election but that is the short term.. the leadership is going for 2016, not 2014. By 2016 they can have gotten rid of most Tea Party wackos.. Backmann is already out and Cruz has pretty much committed political suicide as a serious Presidential candidate. Now they only have to get more moderates that independents like into the fray....

    Have you noticed how few GOPers identify themselves as "Tea Party" these days? 3 years ago everyone was a "Tea Party" person.. now, not so much.
    The problem I see with that is the tea party is not dead. They have to kill off the tea party because the people who back the tea party are fundies. Fundies do not recognize reality so they will cast their vote for a loser just because they are fighting. So if there is a tea party candidate in a republican district it will at least take away what used to be the fundie base of the republicans. Back in newt's day the fundies did not have a choice when they were sold out. It was a choice between a RINO or a dem. Now with the tea party actually on the ballot in some places they can run a candidate who will get good word of mouth in a party networked by church and religious organizations. They have to leave the tea party no choice but to vote republican because those people conjure hope out of nowhere. You can show them 100 polls showing their candidate is a complete loser with only 2 percent of the vote and they will still vote for him and pray for a miracle.

    The thing is the right wing is going to end up splitting with the fundies because the left has adopted liberalism. They chained social programs and the poor minority vote to the dems. They made it an us vs them thing and solidified their voting base, but alienated everyone. yes, they will be good for those who want money, but the problem is they also now have tanked the middle class who used to vote for them for middle class benefits. They went with the fundies and the one percenters. The rest of the public is not going to fall for the idea that rich people deserve breaks because they are the ones who got attached to helping people in need.

    What is worse is with the internet you have a real ability to do things like grass roots movements. So now big business is going to have all of it's employees talking to each other and you won't need unions to organize strikes anymore. you will have flash strikes like flash mobs. There is a huge difference in society from the clinton years to now. There is a fundamental change in society and the old predictions are now just something we can guess with because the real outcome is very different because the equation has changed radically and is continuing to change faster and faster from what it was in the 90s. back in the 90s i was a minority using the internet many hours a day. Now everyone does. The control of our media through television and radio monopolies was insane. The generation being born today is not going to know that.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    The problem I see with that is the tea party is not dead. They have to kill off the tea party because the people who back the tea party are fundies. Fundies do not recognize reality so they will cast their vote for a loser just because they are fighting.
    They have several main problems. To kill off the Tea Party you need to hurt their ability to organize at the local level so they cant go out and basically remove moderate Republicans from safe seats and replace them with one of their own. This is tricky as hell and has to be done several ways. They have to destroy the Tea Party name, which is happening in the shut down at the moment, and then they have to target the individual motivators in the districts. Turn them, and the Tea Party collapses from within since it is already rather disorganised. You also have to defend the moderate Republicans and put up serious contenders.. that is tricky.

    And then the GOP has to control the message, and this is where it gets real tricky. They cant really rely on Fox News who are Tea Party fanboys for the most part, and certainly not the internet or talk radio. They cant go after the sugar daddies since they have far too much power due to their billions,.. so what do you do?

    Frankly do like what Obama has done. Let them drown in their own stupidity. That is basically what Obama and the Dems have been doing the last 5+ years. They dont need to do much because all the damage is being done by the GOP it self and it is a very effective strategy. Look at the 2012 elections. The Tea Party effectively cost whole states because of rape comments and other idiotic brain dead stuff.

    Let the fundies come out with their brain dead ideas and let them hang themselves. The more they open their mouths, the more they hurt themselves.. even Fox News is doing this to themselves. Look at the no pants policy at Fox News that was outed by Gretchen (think it was her).. that even made the news over here in Europe. It is stuff like this, comments from Palin, Bachmann and others that all pile up and ultimately drown them in their own crap.

    The GOP survived Bush Jr.. it can survive this, but it will take time.

    And finally.. if there is a 3rd party, then will be by fracturing the GOP in two.. That will kill off any hope of the right to gain power in the short and medium time. Their only hope then would be a similar thing happening in the Democratic party.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    They have several main problems. To kill off the Tea Party you need to hurt their ability to organize at the local level so they cant go out and basically remove moderate Republicans from safe seats and replace them with one of their own. This is tricky as hell and has to be done several ways. They have to destroy the Tea Party name, which is happening in the shut down at the moment, and then they have to target the individual motivators in the districts. Turn them, and the Tea Party collapses from within since it is already rather disorganised. You also have to defend the moderate Republicans and put up serious contenders.. that is tricky.

    And then the GOP has to control the message, and this is where it gets real tricky. They cant really rely on Fox News who are Tea Party fanboys for the most part, and certainly not the internet or talk radio. They cant go after the sugar daddies since they have far too much power due to their billions,.. so what do you do?

    Frankly do like what Obama has done. Let them drown in their own stupidity. That is basically what Obama and the Dems have been doing the last 5+ years. They dont need to do much because all the damage is being done by the GOP it self and it is a very effective strategy. Look at the 2012 elections. The Tea Party effectively cost whole states because of rape comments and other idiotic brain dead stuff.

    Let the fundies come out with their brain dead ideas and let them hang themselves. The more they open their mouths, the more they hurt themselves.. even Fox News is doing this to themselves. Look at the no pants policy at Fox News that was outed by Gretchen (think it was her).. that even made the news over here in Europe. It is stuff like this, comments from Palin, Bachmann and others that all pile up and ultimately drown them in their own crap.

    The GOP survived Bush Jr.. it can survive this, but it will take time.

    And finally.. if there is a 3rd party, then will be by fracturing the GOP in two.. That will kill off any hope of the right to gain power in the short and medium time. Their only hope then would be a similar thing happening in the Democratic party.
    It is all nice, but it is probably easier to just buy the left at this point. When you consider Obama is pretty much a banker MIC stooge along with big parts of the dem congress. It would be easier to buy the dems and rip the reps in half while leaving the fundies in the remains to scare off any moderates or revolutionaries. The dems vote in blocks when they need to pass things for the bankers. You leave the right bumbling about as a half party and you use the dems to screw the people over.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    It is all nice, but it is probably easier to just buy the left at this point. When you consider Obama is pretty much a banker MIC stooge along with big parts of the dem congress. It would be easier to buy the dems and rip the reps in half while leaving the fundies in the remains to scare off any moderates or revolutionaries. The dems vote in blocks when they need to pass things for the bankers. You leave the right bumbling about as a half party and you use the dems to screw the people over.
    It is actually the Reps that are voting in blocks that are causing all the problems. You can say that Obama is in the pocket of the bankers.. and you would be right up to a point, but ultimately the bankers have far far more in common with the Reps than the Dems, so one has to question their motives in getting into bed with the Dems/Obama.... maybe to taint them in the eyes of the population since bankers are highly unpopular?

    At the end of the day, the bankers and all businesses will attempt to stick with the winner.. and at this time that is clearly the Dems and Obama. This can change, just as it changed away from the GOP and Bush Jr.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    The art of negotiation is to start with what you know you will never get. I think reps bottom line is to get the average American the same year long exemption that big business is getting, then gov starts up again and the obamacare battle continues.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    As of yesterday's new Boehner position in his words, he wants concessions out of this but he won't say what they are.
    Meanwhile, Cantor is on record saying he has gotten all he wants in this budget of Paul Ryan.
    And, we all saw P. Ryan dance the two-step yesterday with his op ed and then recantored on B. Bennett.
    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The art of negotiation is to start with what you know you will never get. I think reps bottom line is to get the average American the same year long exemption that big business is getting, then gov starts up again and the obamacare battle continues.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    As of yesterday's new Boehner position in his words, he wants concessions out of this but he won't say what they are.
    Meanwhile, Cantor is on record saying he has gotten all he wants in this budget of Paul Ryan.
    And, we all saw P. Ryan dance the two-step yesterday with his op ed and then recantored on B. Bennett.
    The dems are showing signs of backing down too. A week from now the mandate will be delayed and gov will be up and running and squandering tax payer dollars hand over fist as per usual.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    At the end of the day, the bankers and all businesses will attempt to stick with the winner.. and at this time that is clearly the Dems and Obama. This can change, just as it changed away from the GOP and Bush Jr.
    And the Bankers and Business leaders are clearly speaking up.Some are dismissing the Koch letter to congress, but not the GOP pols,
    Correct me please if they are not buying the T-bills which amount to holding our debt.
    The interest on those T-bills doubled over Tuesday night.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    I've seen no specific signs from the Dems.
    I did see your man Krauthammer met with Obama.
    Dems are standing around waiting for House Repubs and Senate Repubs to figure out their new hostages.
    Kochs will pull Cantor's strings next week on default.
    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The dems are showing signs of backing down too. A week from now the mandate will be delayed and gov will be up and running and squandering tax payer dollars hand over fist as per usual.

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    Re: Is Speaker Boehner backing off Obamacare demands

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is actually the Reps that are voting in blocks that are causing all the problems. You can say that Obama is in the pocket of the bankers.. and you would be right up to a point, but ultimately the bankers have far far more in common with the Reps than the Dems, so one has to question their motives in getting into bed with the Dems/Obama.... maybe to taint them in the eyes of the population since bankers are highly unpopular?

    At the end of the day, the bankers and all businesses will attempt to stick with the winner.. and at this time that is clearly the Dems and Obama. This can change, just as it changed away from the GOP and Bush Jr.
    Don't get me wrong, I know the republicans are a low breed, but the reality is that the dems are just as bought and paid for, just not as obnoxious. You cannot tell me you watched them hamstring themselves on universal healthcare and did not realize they were working for the insurance companies. They had it before 2010 and the just stopped and waited for the republicans to become opponents again. They were going to actually do something for the people and screw big money and when they realized there was no one to stop them they kept raising the bar and delaying. That was when the last shred of doubt i had that there might actually be a good democrat went bye bye. No, this is all a distraction. Don't take my hate of republicans the wrong way, i just like to see them hurt. The reality is the twea party is the only ones stupid enough to crash the system. I would love to see it come down, i just do not think they have the power to do it. If we are going to have to live as the slaves of the bankers I would rather it be the dems in power because I do not want to be forced into christianity. I do not believe in either side. I believe a good government is one where politicians are poor and the job is only done by those who have to.

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