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Thread: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

  1. #41
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I didn't say government policies don't affect the economy. I said the government doesn't grow the economy. Actually it is business that does. that.
    It's actually a partnership. Each one needs the other. Problems occur when one attempts to dominate the other as the government side is currently doing...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
    Quote Originally Posted by James D Hill View Post
    I am for gay marriage because it ticks off Jesus freaks and social conservatives. Gays are also good voters because the vote for my side so I fight next to them.

  2. #42
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    Okay, I'll play. Explain how so...
    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    Okay, I'll play. Explain how so...
    For one, the biggest single holder of US Federal debt is... the US Federal government. Individual states also hold a fair bit of Federal debt. We owe a lot of money... to ourselves. None of my credit card debt is owed to me or my family.

    Next, interest rates are still basically zero. Accounting for inflation, lately interest rates have actually been negative. People actually lose money when they loan it to the United States. And yet, they're still willing to do so, but only because it's such a solid investment. The US will make interest payments. Guaranteed. And while we have some influence over this, it's really a global market. If the global market didn't think this was a worthy investment, interest rates would have to rise until it was worthy. As of now, we're still able to borrow at near-zero interest rates. My credit card does not have a negative interest rate.

    And we're able to borrow essentially unlimited amounts. Let me stop what I know is your very next thought: No, I am not advocating unlimited borrowing or unlimited spending. That was a dumb thought. The world is not black and white. I cannot arbitrarily decide to raise my credit card limit.

    Furthermore, our nation's spending is not like going to Best Buy and purchasing some frivolous piece of electronics. That spending doesn't evaporate. It goes somewhere. Mostly around our own country. Send someone a social security check, they buy food and pay rent. Send somebody a check because they build fighter planes at Lockheed Martin, they buy food and pay rent. Some of it even comes right back into the IRS' pockets via income taxes and sales taxes and whatnot. None of my credit card expenditures are really something you'd consider an investment.

    The US government also borrows money in a currency it controls and prints. If we wanted to, we can literally print a trillion dollars and reduce our debt by the same. Second dumb thought prevention: No, I am not advocating unlimited printing. Going nuts printing currency creates inflation problems. A little inflation is ok, even beneficial because it motivates investment. A lot is not good. I cannot print dollars to pay to my credit card company.

    US treasury bonds are a fixed, pre-determined interest rate and timeframe. China cannot "call in" our debt. They aren't a bookie. They are owed specific amounts of money at specific times. Not a penny more, and not a day sooner. And even if for some suicidal (economic and literal) reason some nation wanted to call in its debt, we own a lot of tanks. A lot.

    Past here is the point, if you've been too lazy to read this discussion just start here.
    America is spending too much, and too much debt is a problem. However, the problem is not nearly as catastrophic or as immediate as many people seem to think.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #43
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    It's actually a partnership. Each one needs the other. Problems occur when one attempts to dominate the other as the government side is currently doing...
    I don't think so. I'm a businessman and I've never considered the government anything but an adversary in terms of business and economics. What businesses want is freedom from government. Obviously, they can't have that but calling it a partnership is naive, I think. The course of the federal government is very inimical to business and business is the source of every single nickel of net wealth in our society. I wish it were a partnership. The countries in which it is a partnership seem to be on an upward path - Germany, China, Japan etc. No question in my mind that we are on a downward path here.

  4. #44
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    You left out the third option. Grow the economy...
    I didn't leave it out at all and that is by far the best way to grow tax revenue.

  5. #45
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    For one, the biggest single holder of US Federal debt is... the US Federal government. Individual states also hold a fair bit of Federal debt. We owe a lot of money... to ourselves. None of my credit card debt is owed to me or my family.

    Next, interest rates are still basically zero. Accounting for inflation, lately interest rates have actually been negative. People actually lose money when they loan it to the United States. And yet, they're still willing to do so, but only because it's such a solid investment. The US will make interest payments. Guaranteed. And while we have some influence over this, it's really a global market. If the global market didn't think this was a worthy investment, interest rates would have to rise until it was worthy. As of now, we're still able to borrow at near-zero interest rates. My credit card does not have a negative interest rate.

    And we're able to borrow essentially unlimited amounts. Let me stop what I know is your very next thought: No, I am not advocating unlimited borrowing or unlimited spending. That was a dumb thought. The world is not black and white. I cannot arbitrarily decide to raise my credit card limit.

    Furthermore, our nation's spending is not like going to Best Buy and purchasing some frivolous piece of electronics. That spending doesn't evaporate. It goes somewhere. Mostly around our own country. Send someone a social security check, they buy food and pay rent. Send somebody a check because they build fighter planes at Lockheed Martin, they buy food and pay rent. Some of it even comes right back into the IRS' pockets via income taxes and sales taxes and whatnot. None of my credit card expenditures are really something you'd consider an investment.

    The US government also borrows money in a currency it controls and prints. If we wanted to, we can literally print a trillion dollars and reduce our debt by the same. Second dumb thought prevention: No, I am not advocating unlimited printing. Going nuts printing currency creates inflation problems. A little inflation is ok, even beneficial because it motivates investment. A lot is not good. I cannot print dollars to pay to my credit card company.

    US treasury bonds are a fixed, pre-determined interest rate and timeframe. China cannot "call in" our debt. They aren't a bookie. They are owed specific amounts of money at specific times. Not a penny more, and not a day sooner. And even if for some suicidal (economic and literal) reason some nation wanted to call in its debt, we own a lot of tanks. A lot.

    Past here is the point, if you've been too lazy to read this discussion just start here.
    America is spending too much, and too much debt is a problem. However, the problem is not nearly as catastrophic or as immediate as many people seem to think.
    All good points, especially the last one. The point is that any debt is basically a claim on future productive output maintaining an ability to pay interest on the debt while eventually retiring it. Now, do I believe the the US will ever be debt free? No, as it wouldn't be in its best interest to do so, but there is be a point where debt could out of balance with the country's productive output. This is where inflation and other consequences might become a problem...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
    Quote Originally Posted by James D Hill View Post
    I am for gay marriage because it ticks off Jesus freaks and social conservatives. Gays are also good voters because the vote for my side so I fight next to them.

  6. #46
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I don't think so. I'm a businessman and I've never considered the government anything but an adversary in terms of business and economics. What businesses want is freedom from government. Obviously, they can't have that but calling it a partnership is naive, I think. The course of the federal government is very inimical to business and business is the source of every single nickel of net wealth in our society. I wish it were a partnership. The countries in which it is a partnership seem to be on an upward path - Germany, China, Japan etc. No question in my mind that we are on a downward path here.
    That's why I stated the the system is currently out of balance. To say you don't need or want government affecting your business is the naive point of view. Without it you have no currency, no national payment clearinghouse, no protection for your property, etc...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
    Quote Originally Posted by James D Hill View Post
    I am for gay marriage because it ticks off Jesus freaks and social conservatives. Gays are also good voters because the vote for my side so I fight next to them.

  7. #47
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Live updates: The shutdown



    Just like the empty threat to discontinue paying social security, it looks like Obama's default scare tactics are bogus, too.

    And this is the WaPo reporting this, of all sources, which is perhaps the real story here.
    I've been telling liberals this for days - they don't care - they like being ignorantly, blissfully, dependent upon the word of the chosen one. Jim Jones is looking up from hell admiring Obama's hold on them.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  8. #48
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I've been telling liberals this for days - they don't care - they like being ignorantly, blissfully, dependent upon the word of the chosen one. Jim Jones is looking up from hell admiring Obama's hold on them.
    It's not easy being different...

    Good evening jcj...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
    Quote Originally Posted by James D Hill View Post
    I am for gay marriage because it ticks off Jesus freaks and social conservatives. Gays are also good voters because the vote for my side so I fight next to them.

  9. #49
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    It's not easy being different...

    Good evening jcj...
    Good evening V1.1 - another day, another wasted day of talking to brick walls. Hope you're having fun too.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #50
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    Re: Moody's offers different view on debt limit

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Good evening V1.1 - another day, another wasted day of talking to brick walls. Hope you're having fun too.
    Well, I got a late start, so I haven't been bruised as of yet...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
    Quote Originally Posted by James D Hill View Post
    I am for gay marriage because it ticks off Jesus freaks and social conservatives. Gays are also good voters because the vote for my side so I fight next to them.

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