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Thread: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    My first thought was birth control pills. Before anybody freaks out, I'm NOT against birth control pills but as I understand it over the long term I hear they do add certain health risks to some women including an increased risk of cancer and blot clots that could lead to heart attacks and strokes. I'm not a doctor so this should not be construed to imply any medical advice other than to seek the advice of one's own doctor but I've heard its best in some cases not to be on birth control pills forever but rather alternate between pills and other methods then consider his or her surgical options once all the bedrooms are filled with all the kids you want.

    Birth Control The Pill & Breast Cancer Risk - WebMD
    Study: Newer Birth Control Pills May Double Blood Clot Risk

    My second thought was more stressful lives including being more likely to work outside of the home while still doing a good deal of domestic stuff often as single moms. I don't mean to sound sexist but the stereotype of men not being able to multitask well and with women its a breeze, I don't know who came up with that one . My observations of the women I know is they'll will push themselves to do what they must but they do have a breaking point and are on the verge of a meltdown if too much is on their plates. I think men can handle stress a lot better.

    PS. This is why if you care you should never let a woman have the remote control.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 10-10-13 at 10:56 AM.
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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Maybe all you need is love. Experts Say Love Makes You Live Longer and Stay Healthy | Medindia.

    And the point is not necessarily how long you live but how will you live. As Proust pointed out we can discover the beauty is smaller things, not just mountains, chateaus and sunsets, but in old faces, a peach, faded advertising signs. And we can ignore the common culture which often demeans women, and thus demeans men. Check out old movies where romance wasn't a corny word, where love songs were about existing love and people actually held hands and two parent families had fun together without putting each other down. And of course classical music and older architecture has taught us how wonderfully creative our fellow man can be.

    Maybe life is more cluttered and negative now but it can still be more positive and beautiful if we know where to look.

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Seeing as how you STILL haven't provided a single shred of supporting info from those links it is safe to say that you haven't read the links either.






    So you said yourself that your initial comment of women shouldering more of the work is the cause of their decreasing life expectancy and clarified that you were talking about single mothers.

    [/B]

    This calls for an eye-roll.
    1 - You gave up any right to attempt to force me to interpret the links for you when you demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you had not read them by dismissing them in a mere three minutes before your reply. thats how it works. You cannot come back later and pretend otherwise.

    The fact is that you demanded evidence and I gave it to you.............. in spades no less ............... and you did not even have the integrity to read it.

    Sorry but you lost the high ground on that with your own dishonest and dismissive tactics.

    2 - you still have not yet reproduced a quote from me saying what you claim I said. Perhaps the closest (if that is the right term) comes when I said that burning the candle on both ends in terms of full time employment combined with household and children "takes a toll". Things can TAKE A TOLL in lots of ways...... physically..... mentally ... domestically .... family dynamics..... socially .... time availability and allocation .................and possibly in longevity. the list goes on.

    3- yes - an eye roll is indeed in order .................. for you and your posts trying to put words into my posts that are not there and refusing to accept reality.

    so here we go.............

    But please tell me an answer to an honest question: why is it necessary for you to be dismissive of the idea that the change in the role of women over the last half decade has taken a toll on them?

    Can you explain that please?
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  4. #144
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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    1 - You gave up any right to attempt to force me to interpret the links for you when you demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you had not read them by dismissing them in a mere three minutes before your reply. thats how it works. You cannot come back later and pretend otherwise.

    The fact is that you demanded evidence and I gave it to you.............. in spades no less ............... and you did not even have the integrity to read it.

    Sorry but you lost the high ground on that with your own dishonest and dismissive tactics.

    So wait a minute... it is your opinion that you shouldn't have to read YOUR OWN EVIDENCE until others read it? Why do you insist on making yourself look like a fool?

    You didn't read your own provided evidence, we all see that is plainly clear. Why should ANYONE have to read it before you do?



    2 - you still have not yet reproduced a quote from me saying what you claim I said. Perhaps the closest (if that is the right term) comes when I said that burning the candle on both ends in terms of full time employment combined with household and children "takes a toll". Things can TAKE A TOLL in lots of ways...... physically..... mentally ... domestically .... family dynamics..... socially .... time availability and allocation .................and possibly in longevity. the list goes on.

    Yes I did. In a thread about declining female life expectancy you blamed it on the increased work women have to do... and then clarified your position to the extra work single moms have to do. It's right there. Everyone can see what you said. Stop denying the patently obvious.

    This argument is only slightly less pathetic than your argument above that you shouldn't have to read your own evidence because I didn't.



    3- yes - an eye roll is indeed in order .................. for you and your posts trying to put words into my posts that are not there and refusing to accept reality.

    so here we go.............


    It is well documented now what your claim was, what you provided as evidence of your claim, and that you admit to having not read it.

    But then you also already admitted that there is no definitive study (read: any) that backs your original claim... at least none that you have read. But then that isn't really ruling anything out because you don't read your own evidence.


    But please tell me an answer to an honest question: why is it necessary for you to be dismissive of the idea that the change in the role of women over the last half decade has taken a toll on them?

    I never made that claim. In fact, my original claim was PRECISELY that the drive for equality for women has been detrimental to their health. This places no value claim on women's equality, just popinting out that equality isn't all sunshine and roses. There are trade offs -- hence my "Monkey's Paw" comment way back at the beginning of this thread. They strive to live like men and they now die more like men.

    What I DIDN'T say was that the combo of housework and a job is shortening women's lifespan because the statistics say just the opposite. Men have been shouldering a greater load of the household chores over the same time period and the added workload doesn't appear to be affecting them. So in the long run it has nothing to do with household chores and everything to do with working outside the home.

    It actually poses a pretty interesting line of study on logevity. For ever the thought was there was something simply biological in the differences in the life span of men and women. This current turn of events seems to indicate that the differences are largely environmental.

    But none of this changes the fact that YOU DON'T READ YOUR OWN EVIDENCE.

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    So wait a minute... it is your opinion that you shouldn't have to read YOUR OWN EVIDENCE until others read it?
    You gave up any right to attempt to force me to interpret the links for you when you demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you had not read them by dismissing them in a mere three minutes before your reply. thats how it works. You cannot come back later and pretend otherwise.
    That does NOT mean I did not read my own links. That is you making crap up and then wanting to argue about it.

    You remind me of Indiana Jones in the first RAIDERS movie where he admits to just making it up as he goes along. And that is what you just did with this nonsense.

    You make crap up about what you think I said and then respond to your own nonsense. You still have not produced any quote from me stating what you claim I stated. And you will not do it in your next post either.

    It is funny to watch you argue with yourself hoping that you can get me to take your own nonsense on as my own position.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-10-13 at 02:14 PM.
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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    ...Scientists Baffled by Shocking Trend

    The increase in unmarried single mothers, the increase in women in the work force, the rise of alcohol, tobacco and drug abuse, the dissolution of the poor white community and the social support and religious and moral traditions that go with it would be my guesses as to why.

    Men, on the other hand, are living a little longer, and the difference between male and female life spans is decreasing. American men's longevity was about 7.8 years shorter than women's in 1972 but the difference dropped to 5 years in 2005. Perhaps women pay a price when they take on the roles traditionally assigned to men, especially the role of sole breadwinner.
    I see one thing right away. Those states that are listed as being the worst of the heap?

    They are the same states that have the worst prenatal care, and experience extremely high infant and mother mortality.

    I suspect that is a big reason. It has become such a serious problem in some of the South that it's being called a crisis. It's the worst in the developed world.

    Secondly, what we are seeing right now is not women taking roles "traditionally assigned to men." What we are seeing -- especially in poor states -- is women taking ALL roles. Not only working, but also being the only caretaker of children -- even if they're married, in some cases. That's a very different thing.

    Even though women are working, they are still extreme minorities in the riskiest professions. So their work lives in and of themselves are probably not contributing much to their mortality. But the stress level of being not only the sole worker, but also the sole parent, probably is.

    In addition to that, we are realizing now that obesity affects women much more than previously thought. We formerly thought men were higher risk of heart disease, but we're learning that's not true. Men have more dramatic coronary events, but women often have hidden illnesses. Up until very recently, women were often under-treated for heart disease because no one realized what was going on.

    Along the same vein, obesity and high estrogen exposure is causing extremely early puberty in a lot of girls -- often while still in elementary school. This contributes to risk of various diseases later in life, including cancer, depression, diabetes, and a bunch of other things.

    As far as your guesses, you're completely off-base. America has the lowest rates of smoking in the West, and women are smoking less than men, and less than they did 50 years ago.

    As far as alcohol, I'm not 100% sure if it's higher or lower, but I do know that drug abuse was rampant in the days of the Stepford wife. Sometimes it was alcohol, and sometimes it was benzos, but women were abusing drugs plenty, partly because they were miserable.

    Furthermore, we now know that men's life expectancy gap is not entire related to lifestyle. Yes, high risk professions and being riskier in their youths do tilt the odds, but there are also cellular causes at work that are inherent to having a Y chromosome. Women's bodies appear to expend more energy repairing damage throughout their lives, whereas testosterone seems to suppress this somewhat. This probably contributes to their slightly shorter life expectancy.

    In short, this has nothing to do with women "being equal." It actually probably has to do with a combination of things: the ravages of poverty, the epidemic of obesity, and the lack of women's health care.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 10-10-13 at 02:37 PM.

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    My first thought was birth control pills. Before anybody freaks out, I'm NOT against birth control pills but as I understand it over the long term I hear they do add certain health risks to some women including an increased risk of cancer and blot clots that could lead to heart attacks and strokes. I'm not a doctor so this should not be construed to imply any medical advice other than to seek the advice of one's own doctor but I've heard its best in some cases not to be on birth control pills forever but rather alternate between pills and other methods then consider his or her surgical options once all the bedrooms are filled with all the kids you want.

    Birth Control The Pill & Breast Cancer Risk - WebMD
    Study: Newer Birth Control Pills May Double Blood Clot Risk
    This is a little more complex than it looks at first blush.

    First, it is true there is a link.

    However, this is only in women who have been on it for a long time, and stayed on it into their high-risk years.

    For women who have gone off birth control, their breast cancer risk does eventually return to normal.

    Second, the increase in risk with MODERN birth control is much lower than it was with older forms of the pill. The hormonal doses now are much lower, so the risk is much lower as well.

    And finally, you're trading one cancer risk for another: using birth control at some point in your life lowers your risk of ovarian cancer. And here's the interesting part. It actually STAYS lower, even after you go off it, because ovarian cancer risk functions on a scale of how many natural cycles you had in your life.

    In the end, it's kind of a wash, and it may ultimately be better because ovarian cancer is a lot deadlier than breast cancer. However, women entering middle age should really consider if other forms of birth control may be better for them as their risk rises with age.

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I see one thing right away. Those states that are listed as being the worst of the heap?

    They are the same states that have the worst prenatal care, and experience extremely high infant and mother mortality.

    I suspect that is a big reason. It has become such a serious problem in some of the South that it's being called a crisis. It's the worst in the developed world.

    Secondly, what we are seeing right now is not women taking roles "traditionally assigned to men." What we are seeing -- especially in poor states -- is women taking ALL roles. Not only working, but also being the only caretaker of children -- even if they're married, in some cases. That's a very different thing.

    Even though women are working, they are still extreme minorities in the riskiest professions. So their work lives in and of themselves are probably not contributing much to their mortality. But the stress level of being not only the sole worker, but also the sole parent, probably is.

    In addition to that, we are realizing now that obesity affects women much more than previously thought. We formerly thought men were higher risk of heart disease, but we're learning that's not true. Men have more dramatic coronary events, but women often have hidden illnesses. Up until very recently, women were often under-treated for heart disease because no one realized what was going on.

    Along the same vein, obesity and high estrogen exposure is causing extremely early puberty in a lot of girls -- often while still in elementary school. This contributes to risk of various diseases later in life, including cancer, depression, diabetes, and a bunch of other things.

    As far as your guesses, you're completely off-base. America has the lowest rates of smoking in the West, and women are smoking less than men, and less than they did 50 years ago.

    As far as alcohol, I'm not 100% sure if it's higher or lower, but I do know that drug abuse was rampant in the days of the Stepford wife. Sometimes it was alcohol, and sometimes it was benzos, but women were abusing drugs plenty, partly because they were miserable.

    Furthermore, we now know that men's life expectancy gap is not entire related to lifestyle. Yes, high risk professions and being riskier in their youths do tilt the odds, but there are also cellular causes at work that are inherent to having a Y chromosome. Women's bodies appear to expend more energy repairing damage throughout their lives, whereas testosterone seems to suppress this somewhat. This probably contributes to their slightly shorter life expectancy.

    In short, this has nothing to do with women "being equal." It actually probably has to do with a combination of things: the ravages of poverty, the epidemic of obesity, and the lack of women's health care.
    It seems that when women's organizations wanted their social roles changed they expected men's social roles to continue much as they had been for previous centuries, but that's largely disappeared. The law of unexpected consequences strikes again!

    Some men discovered that they need a steady woman like a fish needs a bicycle.

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It seems that when women's organizations wanted their social roles changed they expected men's social roles to continue much as they had been for previous centuries, but that's largely disappeared. The law of unexpected consequences strikes again!

    Some men discovered that they need a steady woman like a fish needs a bicycle.
    Did you ready any of my post, dude?

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    Re: Why Are American Women Living 5 Years Less than Their Mothers?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You gave up any right to attempt to force me to interpret the links for you when you demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you had not read them by dismissing them in a mere three minutes before your reply. thats how it works. You cannot come back later and pretend otherwise.
    That does NOT mean I did not read my own links. That is you making crap up and then wanting to argue about it.

    You remind me of Indiana Jones in the first RAIDERS movie where he admits to just making it up as he goes along. And that is what you just did with this nonsense.

    You make crap up about what you think I said and then respond to your own nonsense. You still have not produced any quote from me stating what you claim I stated. And you will not do it in your next post either.

    It is funny to watch you argue with yourself hoping that you can get me to take your own nonsense on as my own position.

    You keep saying i that I gave up all rights to comment when I didn't read your links... BUT YOU DIDN'T READ YOUR LINKS. How can you possibly expect anyone else to give more time to your evidence than you have? I have asked you to show me that you have a grasp of your own evidence and you have continued dodge. You refuse to read your links even now.

    I at least read enough of each of them to determine what they were trying to show, and all of them were making the same exact point WHICH DOESN'T PROVE YOUR POINT.

    I see now that you are trying to change what you said originally, but the great irony is that while you have now changed your argument to meet your evidence, what your evidence says is precisely what I said it said after my review. Now you are bitching at me for not reading your links even though I drew the exact same conclusion from your evidence that you are now arguing AND your argument is now in line with the argument that I have been making all along.

    Women aren't living shorter lives because of the combination of work and household chores. The data doesn't support that. They are living shorter lives because they are living their lives increasingly the same way men do.

    So, back to my original point:

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Vive la Equality!
    I hope this was not too subtle for you.

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