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Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

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Just so I get this straight... There is no law making circumcision obligatory, however, this court believes it has the power to fine people who don't circumcise their children? Where on earth did the court get the opinion it had the power to hand out fines then?
 
Hatuey said:
Just so I get this straight... There is no law making circumcision obligatory, however, this court believes it has the power to fine people who don't circumcise their children? Where on earth did the court get the opinion it had the power to hand out fines then?
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That's what happens when religious fanatics are in charge.
 
Rainman05 said:
Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision | ReutersWell first off, the council of Europe doesn't make laws. this is just a resolution. It's a recommendation basically.
I personally agree, I think the whole male circumcision thing is barbaric at best. A savage practice that we can dispense from now, in this day and age.

I'm not against having men circumcised if they want to when they're past 18 years old and legally adults but not before they can speak and understand what is happening to them.

The funny thing is israels' reaction the suggestion. I mean talk about overreaction. This law won't affect israel. And I know what you're thinking, it will affect jews in Europe. But jews in europe that are not israelis are not Israels' duty to represent. They have their own representatives.
And the religious argument doesn't matter here. It doesn't matter if your religion says this is important or not, religion does not play a hand in matters of governance. You obey the laws of the land first and you observe your religious practices in religious locations.
If you make a religion that demands that you kill someone every solstice, you will go to prison for murder. Now I'm not comparing circumcision with murder, I'm just pointing out that the law of the land is what counts and religious rituals that are against the law are religious rituals that must be abandoned. But this isn't the case yet with circumcision, as I said, this is just a resolution, not a law. The council can't make laws.
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It's good that they are keeping themselves busy.
 
Rainman05 said:
Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision | Reuters





Well first off, the council of Europe doesn't make laws. this is just a resolution. It's a recommendation basically.
I personally agree, I think the whole male circumcision thing is barbaric at best. A savage practice that we can dispense from now, in this day and age.

I'm not against having men circumcised if they want to when they're past 18 years old and legally adults but not before they can speak and understand what is happening to them.

The funny thing is israels' reaction the suggestion. I mean talk about overreaction. This law won't affect israel. And I know what you're thinking, it will affect jews in Europe. But jews in europe that are not israelis are not Israels' duty to represent. They have their own representatives.
And the religious argument doesn't matter here. It doesn't matter if your religion says this is important or not, religion does not play a hand in matters of governance. You obey the laws of the land first and you observe your religious practices in religious locations.
If you make a religion that demands that you kill someone every solstice, you will go to prison for murder. Now I'm not comparing circumcision with murder, I'm just pointing out that the law of the land is what counts and religious rituals that are against the law are religious rituals that must be abandoned. But this isn't the case yet with circumcision, as I said, this is just a resolution, not a law. The council can't make laws.
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Just another expression of European antisemitism. History suggests, strongly, that Jews in Europe cannot depend on Europeans to treat them with even minimal decency, let alone respect and tolerance.:peace
 
Excon said:
It is none of your business.
Just like the a person right to chose abortion is none of your business.
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I don't see how you can compare the two.
 
Excon said:
Routine procedures that have nothing to do with you.
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Both are violations of basic human rights: the right to life and the right to choose your own religion, respectively. And it is the duty of citizens of free and democratic countries to stand up for the rights of those who cannot defend it for themselves.
 
Including Muslims.
 
Jack Hays said:
Just another expression of European antisemitism. History suggests, strongly, that Jews in Europe cannot depend on Europeans to treat them with even minimal decency, let alone respect and tolerance.:peace
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As a Jew, I can say this resolution is perfectly decent. If you're above 18 years of age and want it for yourself, go for it. If your kid actually needs it for medical reasons, then the best of luck to you. However, you should not (and hopefully soon, may not) physically force your religion on an infant.
 
Intellectually I understand the arguments against circumcision. But it's so harmless that I struggle to embrace them. Even as a secular Jew I'll probably have my kid circumcised to fit in with our cultural norms. Is it a relic of bronze age savagery? Probably. But since it's impact is so muted and at least in this country the aesthetic is closer to the norm I don't really mind. It might be hypocrisy but there are worse things to be hypocritical about.
 
MadLib said:
As a Jew, I can say this resolution is perfectly decent. If you're above 18 years of age and want it for yourself, go for it. If your kid actually needs it for medical reasons, then the best of luck to you. However, you should not (and hopefully soon, may not) physically force your religion on an infant.
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Fair enough, but anyone who followed the history of this legislation knows that it was not motivated by concern for infants.
 
So what's it about?
 
Sherman123 said:
Intellectually I understand the arguments against circumcision. But it's so harmless that I struggle to embrace them. Even as a secular Jew I'll probably have my kid circumcised to fit in with our cultural norms. Is it a relic of bronze age savagery? Probably. But since it's impact is so muted and at least in this country the aesthetic is closer to the norm I don't really mind. It might be hypocrisy but there are worse things to be hypocritical about.
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"Hypocrisy is the lubricant of civilization." --Crane Brinton:peace
 
Considering that this law will affect Muslim practices far more than Jewish due to the enormous disparity in populations, I think Israel is way off the mark here. Is much of Europe anti-Semitic? Decidedly so, but this antisemitism is being fueled by the very population most affected by this new law, so it's not as if antisemitism, alone, explains the law. Laws have to be crafted to apply to all equally, and so Jewish people were not singled out here.

If I were Jewish living in the U.K. or Sweden, and could afford to get out, I would. Both countries are viciously antisemitic, both in the Muslim as well as native populations. Just as there was a time in Europe in the 20s when Jews could escape, there is a time now when there is still an opportunity. I really do not see life for Jewish people living in Europe as improving soon -- not with the explosion of the Muslim population and corresponding increase of non Muslim antisemitism there. Instead of railing against these new policies, however, I would think Israel would be better off just doing what it could to ensure the safe passage of Jews from those areas in Europe where they are being harassed to the greatest degree.
 
Jack Hays said:
Embarrassing Israel.
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I fail to understand how any outside body can tell a sovereign country that they must accept any flood of immigrants that come knocking at their door! Huh? I don't think so! :argue:

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:
 
polgara said:
I fail to understand how any outside body can tell a sovereign country that they must accept any flood of immigrants that come knocking at their door! Huh? I don't think so! :argue:

Greetings, Jack. :2wave:
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Greetings Polgara.:2wave:

Babysitting grandson this morning while the ladies are out shopping/getting pedicures.:peace
 
MadLib said:
Both are violations of basic human rights: the right to life and the right to choose your own religion, respectively. And it is the duty of citizens of free and democratic countries to stand up for the rights of those who cannot defend it for themselves.
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No, it isn't a basic human right.
And your parents have the right to bring you up in their beliefs. Your choice comes afterwards.
And it is none of your business.
 
Excon said:
No, it isn't a basic human right.
And your parents have the right to bring you up in their beliefs. Your choice comes afterwards.
And it is none of your business.
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Sorry, but nobody has the right to force religious beliefs down my throat, especially through genital mutilation. Determining what parts of my body stay on me are my business alone, no one else' :2wave:
 
MadLib said:
Sorry, but nobody has the right to force religious beliefs down my throat, especially through genital mutilation. Determining what parts of my body stay on me are my business alone, no one else' :2wave:
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Obviously parents are. And removing extra skin really isn't mutilation.
 
Jack Hays said:
Greetings Polgara.:2wave:

Babysitting grandson this morning while the ladies are out shopping/getting pedicures.:peace
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Ironically, I have a full body massage and pedicure scheduled for today, too.! :mrgreen: Must be some atavistic thing going on here...getting ready to welcome a new year in looking our very best? :yes:
 
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