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Thread: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

  1. #131
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by ido_ View Post
    How can you not force religion. Children are eventually gaining their culture and beliefs from their family. Should families avoid practicing religion around their children and at the age of 18 give them a few leaflets explaining about each religion and let them choose? Its not working this way. If you were born Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu you will most probably be one, same goes for your culture, if you are raised in a liberal environment you will become one, if you were raised in an environment that believes men are superior to women, you will believe so too.
    It's one thing to practice your own beliefs in front of a child and to take him/her with you, it's another thing entirely to remove a part of their genitals without their consent. Would you say that female circumcision is merely an expression of religion that should be enabled by law?
    Circumcision is a major part of the Jewish culture and forbidding it equals forbidding Jews from raising their children as such. Calling the act barbaric is a bit extreme in my opinion, today you don't see many Jews do the Brith by a Mohel in a party with all of the family dancing around the infant's bleeding penis, it is done in a hospital by doctors.
    Something being a major part of culture doesn't mean it should be legally sanctioned. Governments should try to their utmost to let children choose their own culture, and shouldn't have it forced upon them because of "parental rights."
    Why is it ok in a European eyes to make holes in your child's earlobe but not ok to do circumcision in a hospital?
    I wouldn't mind making earrings for babies illegal as well. From what I've heard it's actually more dangerous to pierce an infant's ear than male circumcision is.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  2. #132
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's one thing to practice your own beliefs in front of a child and to take him/her with you, it's another thing entirely to remove a part of their genitals without their consent. Would you say that female circumcision is merely an expression of religion that should be enabled by law?
    So at what age does this child who were taught up to be a Haredi Jew for example (And we all know what will become of such a child) is allowed to be circumcised ? Is he legally old enough to decide according to his culture at the age of 13? Or is it again what his government dictates to him?

    Something being a major part of culture doesn't mean it should be legally sanctioned. Governments should try to their utmost to let children choose their own culture, and shouldn't have it forced upon them because of "parental rights."
    As I see it this by these law Governments force European culture upon the child


    I wouldn't mind making earrings for babies illegal as well. From what I've heard it's actually more dangerous to pierce an infant's ear than male circumcision is.[/QUOTE]
    Ido R.

    “Messi may have four Golden Balls, but I don’t have to get on a box to buy a chocolate bar in a vending machine” - Zlatan Ibrahimovic

  3. #133
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I had braces when I was a kid and they hurt a hell of a lot more than something I don't remember as a baby. Guess that barbaric practice out to be outlawed as well.
    having braces has a medical/dental reason, circumcision does not have that reason.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    Circumcision is also a health plus though if I'm not mistaken. Nobody remembers being circumcised as a baby so what is the problem?
    the problem is that it is a religious based interference on an infants body.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  5. #135
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    As I said. Extra skin.
    It is not needed
    You're certainly entitled to your opinion but that's all it is, an opinion which has no basis in medical science.

    It is not mutilation or a basic human right
    Your opinion again.

    It is not cruelty or your business.
    I could've worded it better and said cruelty to infants.

    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by shanners; 01-14-14 at 07:31 AM.
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by ido_ View Post
    How can you not force religion. Children are eventually gaining their culture and beliefs from their family. Should families avoid practicing religion around their children and at the age of 18 give them a few leaflets explaining about each religion and let them choose? Its not working this way. If you were born Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu you will most probably be one, same goes for your culture, if you are raised in a liberal environment you will become one, if you were raised in an environment that believes men are superior to women, you will believe so too.

    Circumcision is a major part of the Jewish culture and forbidding it equals forbidding Jews from raising their children as such. Calling the act barbaric is a bit extreme in my opinion, today you don't see many Jews do the Brith by a Mohel in a party with all of the family dancing around the infant's bleeding penis, it is done in a hospital by doctors. Why is it ok in a European eyes to make holes in your child's earlobe but not ok to do circumcision in a hospital?
    Yet this Orthodox Jew argues from Torah that it's a human rights violation:

    "There can be no doubt that bris milah is an important mitzvah. While the Torah does call for circumcision at eight days, there are indeed prominent Jews in the Tanakh who were circumcised later in life. Avraham Avinu was circumcised at 99; tradition holds that he kept the entirety of the written and oral Torah well before matan Torah, meaning he performed the majority of mitzvahs in his life while in an uncircumcised state.

    "While it may potentially be halakhically serious if neglected, circumcision is not a requirement to be considered a Jew, if one is born of a Jewish mother. If someone uncircumcised happens to be a Kohen, he may even bless other Jewish people ...

    "Circumcision of an infant is increasingly being viewed a human rights violation, and must certainly be viewed as such as stated in the key sentence. This being said, an adult Jewish male is free to choose the procedure for himself and should be encouraged to do so if he so desires. He will certainly be rewarded for his mitzvah (especially if done without anesthetic, though that is optional and not mandatory). However, no one in the modern world has the right to do this to another human without his permission. Circumcision of a baby is a serious malpractice and human rights violation, and must accordingly be viewed the same way all human rights violations are viewed within the Jewish faith."


    Beyond the Bris: News and Views on Jewish Circumcision: Judaism, Bris Milah, and Human Rights: A Torah Perspective
    We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

    Benjamin Netanyahu, as quoted in Ma'ariv, 16 April, 2008

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by shanners View Post
    You're certainly entitled to your opinion but that's all it is, an opinion which has no basis in medical science.
    Wrong. Extra skin, is extra skin.


    Quote Originally Posted by shanners View Post
    Your opinion again.
    Opinion based on fact of practice throughout millenia.



    Quote Originally Posted by shanners View Post
    I could've worded it better and said .
    Still is not cruelty or your business.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by shanners View Post
    Yet this Orthodox Jew argues from Torah that it's a human rights violation:

    "There can be no doubt that bris milah is an important mitzvah. While the Torah does call for circumcision at eight days, there are indeed prominent Jews in the Tanakh who were circumcised later in life. Avraham Avinu was circumcised at 99; tradition holds that he kept the entirety of the written and oral Torah well before matan Torah, meaning he performed the majority of mitzvahs in his life while in an uncircumcised state.

    "While it may potentially be halakhically serious if neglected, circumcision is not a requirement to be considered a Jew, if one is born of a Jewish mother. If someone uncircumcised happens to be a Kohen, he may even bless other Jewish people ...

    "Circumcision of an infant is increasingly being viewed a human rights violation, and must certainly be viewed as such as stated in the key sentence. This being said, an adult Jewish male is free to choose the procedure for himself and should be encouraged to do so if he so desires. He will certainly be rewarded for his mitzvah (especially if done without anesthetic, though that is optional and not mandatory). However, no one in the modern world has the right to do this to another human without his permission. Circumcision of a baby is a serious malpractice and human rights violation, and must accordingly be viewed the same way all human rights violations are viewed within the Jewish faith."


    Beyond the Bris: News and Views on Jewish Circumcision: Judaism, Bris Milah, and Human Rights: A Torah Perspective
    Where exactly do he argues that from the Torah?
    Ido R.

    “Messi may have four Golden Balls, but I don’t have to get on a box to buy a chocolate bar in a vending machine” - Zlatan Ibrahimovic

  9. #139
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by ido_ View Post
    So at what age does this child who were taught up to be a Haredi Jew for example (And we all know what will become of such a child) is allowed to be circumcised ? Is he legally old enough to decide according to his culture at the age of 13? Or is it again what his government dictates to him?
    I try not to be a fundamentalist about these things - I'd prefer making 18 the age of consent for circumcision, but it could be combined with the bar mitzvah in the boy's early teen years. All I'm certain of is that an infant cannot possibly consent to the procedure.

    As I see it this by these law Governments force European culture upon the child
    But in fact it does not do any such thing. Once the child is old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wants to be a part of his parents culture, then he may be circumcised.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by ido_ View Post
    Where exactly do he argues that from the Torah?
    Perhaps I misunderstood it when I saw "A Torah Perspective" in the title?
    We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.

    Benjamin Netanyahu, as quoted in Ma'ariv, 16 April, 2008

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