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Thread: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

  1. #111
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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    So, what state centers do you think children should be taken to to be raised correctly and without the influences of their stupid parents? Surely circumcision can't be the only thing that offends you. Some parent's may (are you sitting down for this?) take their children to church.
    You can try to defame me with this ill-thought-out logic, but all it does it degrade the veracity of your original arguments.

    You'd be hard pressed to find another medical procedure that we perform on new borns without their consent that I would be against, along the lines of the same criteria that I am against circumcision.

    Keep grasping though.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    Fine, but it really isn't any of your business what other people do, and I don't think that circumcision can be equated with female genital mutilation..
    If something is scientifically questionable and perhaps medically unethical, then it's the job of government to investigate and perhaps do legal reform.

    Saying that it's not my business isn't really addressing whether or not elective circumcision is warranted. Again, you go for the personal attack without really addressing the core content of this debate. If you can't defend circumcision itself then you have already lost the argument.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    I took it as being against Jewish tradition, but look at it as a medical procedure that most Americans, Jewish or not, have done on their male children...
    The practice is declining as old myths about cleanliness, STDs, etc., have been debunked. This is a Newsweek article which may be of interest: Circumcision Rate in the U.S. Declines as Attitudes Change (1) - Businessweek

    Basically, about 55% of male babies are circumcised now, compared with 65% a couple of decades ago.

    Personally, I think circumcision is a decision the government should have no part in; that said, I did not allow my own son to be circumcised. Circumcision was not part of his father's family customs, and I was grateful because I do view it as a genital mutilation on an infant, a process that sometimes goes horribly and irrevocably awry. Any unnecessary cutting procedure on a newborn has risks, and I personally would prefer children are allowed to make their own decision once they are grown. Once the decision has been made for them, it cannot be undone.

    Yes, I also abhor piercings on infants, although a pinhole in the earlobe will heal, but a foreskin is not going to grow back.

    That said, it is also a religious custom, and as such it should never be outlawed by any government because it would infringe on the religious freedoms of its populace. It does seem odd to me, however, that God would carefully fashion a perfectly nice foreskin, then command his followers to lop it off at birth! People do seem to become rabid on both sides whenever this issues comes up... no pun intended, lol!

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    You can try to defame me with this ill-thought-out logic, but all it does it degrade the veracity of your original arguments.

    You'd be hard pressed to find another medical procedure that we perform on new borns without their consent that I would be against, along the lines of the same criteria that I am against circumcision.

    Keep grasping though.
    I'm serious. What other decisions do you want removed from parents?

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I'm serious. What other decisions do you want removed from parents?
    Is this some attempt at a slippery slope argument for something I never even said?

    Stop making straw men. There's a lot more that I wrote that is owed the courtesy of a reply.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    The practice is declining as old myths about cleanliness, STDs, etc., have been debunked. This is a Newsweek article which may be of interest: Circumcision Rate in the U.S. Declines as Attitudes Change (1) - Businessweek

    Basically, about 55% of male babies are circumcised now, compared with 65% a couple of decades ago.

    Personally, I think circumcision is a decision the government should have no part in; that said, I did not allow my own son to be circumcised. Circumcision was not part of his father's family customs, and I was grateful because I do view it as a genital mutilation on an infant, a process that sometimes goes horribly and irrevocably awry. Any unnecessary cutting procedure on a newborn has risks, and I personally would prefer children are allowed to make their own decision once they are grown. Once the decision has been made for them, it cannot be undone.

    Yes, I also abhor piercings on infants, although a pinhole in the earlobe will heal, but a foreskin is not going to grow back.

    That said, it is also a religious custom, and as such it should never be outlawed by any government because it would infringe on the religious freedoms of its populace. It does seem odd to me, however, that God would carefully fashion a perfectly nice foreskin, then command his followers to lop it off at birth! People do seem to become rabid on both sides whenever this issues comes up... no pun intended, lol!
    You seem a little less biased, so I'll ask you.

    If circumcision is not okay, and is indeed barbaric, then why does religion get a free pass?

    Normally I'd be the first to respect people's traditions, but why do they get to trump medical ethics in this case? If it's wrong to cut genitalia then why is it right if religious people do it?

    Can someone please answer this without foaming at the mouth about how I hate religion? Cause I don't.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    You seem a little less biased, so I'll ask you.

    If circumcision is not okay, and is indeed barbaric, then why does religion get a free pass?

    Normally I'd be the first to respect people's traditions, but why do they get to trump medical ethics in this case? If it's wrong to cut genitalia then why is it right if religious people do it?

    Can someone please answer this without foaming at the mouth about how I hate religion? Cause I don't.
    Religion gets a free pass because this country was founded on freedom of religion, and I personally wouldn't have it any other way. Government needs to butt out of religious traditions, unless human sacrifice is involved.

    Do I personally find certain religious traditions offputting? Sure. But it's really none of my business. I am not a religious person, but I would start quaking in my boots if the liberty of those who are religious came under official government attack... for any reason. I'm sure you can understand why.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Religion gets a free pass because this country was founded on freedom of religion, and I personally wouldn't have it any other way. Government needs to butt out of religious traditions, unless human sacrifice is involved.

    Do I personally find certain religious traditions offputting? Sure. But it's really none of my business. I am not a religious person, but I would start quaking in my boots if the liberty of those who are religious came under official government attack... for any reason. I'm sure you can understand why.
    I completely agree, but we already restrict freedom of religion in some ways. Some events require permits, especially where they put public safety at risk. Certain ceremonial objects, like knives and daggers, can't be worn in government buildings even though those religions say that the adherent must wear them at all times. Many followers come from countries with very strict religious rules about relations between men and women, how women should be treated, etc... i.e. Shariah law, but we don't let men imprison women in their homes.

    I hate government statism, I really do... but this is about medical ethics. I don't feel it would be a slippery slope for the government to re-examine the question of circumcision for everyone, if the secular data points to it being unnecessary. Statistically, more boys get botched circumcisions than uncircumcised men get HIV.

    Simply touting freedom of religion is not enough to convince me. I'm sorry. I need to hear a better argument.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I completely agree, but we already restrict freedom of religion in some ways. Some events require permits, especially where they put public safety at risk. Certain ceremonial objects, like knives and daggers, can't be worn in government buildings even though those religions say that the adherent must wear them at all times. Many followers come from countries with very strict religious rules about relations between men and women, how women should be treated, etc... i.e. Shariah law, but we don't let men imprison women in their homes.

    I hate government statism, I really do... but this is about medical ethics. I don't feel it would be a slippery slope for the government to re-examine the question of circumcision for everyone, if the secular data points to it being unnecessary. Statistically, more boys get botched circumcisions than uncircumcised men get HIV.

    Simply touting freedom of religion is not enough to convince me. I'm sorry. I need to hear a better argument.
    Well, you're not going to hear one from me. I don't like circumcising infants any more than you do, but quite frankly it's not the government's business to be telling parents they aren't allowed to have their infant boys circumcised any more than it would be the government's business to force circumcision on every infant boy regardless of the parents' wishes.

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    Re: Israel attacks Council of Europe move to restrict male circumcision

    Quote Originally Posted by shanners View Post
    It doesn't bother you that you were mutilated without your consent?



    Perhaps the best way to stop this barbaric practice is by instigating legal action. When doctors understand they can be sued for it then and only then will it stop.
    I'm not particularly bothered by it, but I would have every right to be, were I so inclined. Why should parents be able to cut off pieces of their child for no other reason but to appease their god? Would you support this in every situation, or just when it involves you?


    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    So shall we continue to allow the brutal practice of twisting kids teeth over a period of years and maybe even extracting them (I had four permanent teeth pulled by my quack orthodontist) in the name of asthetics? I'm curious what other things you don't think parents should get to decide for children your "free society". What if they teach *gasp* religion? Probably better to remove kids from their parents and let folks like you raise them correctly, amiright?
    LOL, they're cutting off pieces of the child for religious reasons. Please, tell me, would you be OK with it if Alpacism was a growing religion that cut off the lower half of children's ears to appease their god? Are there ZERO limits to what a parent can do to a child for you?

    Braces are not permanent, cutting off a piece of you is. Now, as I stated in my original post, I'm circumcized like most Americans and it doesn't upset me at all, but we have to recognize that you can't just cut off pieces of kids bodies for no other reason but deity appeasement.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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