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Thread: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    But if they aren't raised together, due to split households or foster care, or they don't have a psychological aversion to such relationships, then what? The state's interest in restricting those relationships is.......
    I have said multiple times that I believe there should be an exception for such cases allowing them to marry. I think they should have to be the ones to prove though that they weren't raised together, to a judge and let the judge decide, just as many states now have judges deciding whether those under 18 (or other ages) can get married.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post

    You mean like interracial sex/marriage will never be socially acceptable?

    Of course not! Interracial marriage has almost always been acceptable (depending on time period). This is a misdirect which doesn't deal honestly with the discussion.

    (similar to calling someone racist / stupid for criticizing or supporting Obama / Bush)

    We aren't talking about natural sexual behavior, but same-sex or sibling sex.

    Natural sex - no detriment, within the confines of marriage (fornication will kill a society with poorly raised children - so marriage is key)

    Sibling / same-sex - social detriment (focus on the fulfilling of 'sexual desire' leads to unreasonable and narcissistic people)

    However as I stated, sibling/same-sex should NOT be barred by the government - these things will weed themselves out naturally; 'government' solutions cause far more pain than they alleviate in this matter (IMO).

    Just like the drug war.

    Cycles of anti- or pro-homosexuality always happen; (not so much for sibling) independent of culture/spiritual/philosophical conceptions.

    E.G. homo and sibling sex make most people's toes curl regardless of philosophical underpinning, and only on the up-cycle of homosexuality is it even a concern for social minders (see Greece, Rome, modern USA for examples).
    Last edited by SingleCellOrganism; 10-08-13 at 04:52 PM.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleCellOrganism View Post
    Of course not! Interracial marriage has almost always been acceptable (depending on time period).
    What??? There are plenty of us here at DP who are old enough to recall when interracial marriage was a gigantic social no-no.

    How old are you? I'm guessing younger than 30?

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    What??? There are plenty of us here at DP who are old enough to recall when interracial marriage was a gigantic social no-no.

    How old are you? I'm guessing younger than 30?
    Yes I am.

    But as I mentioned "depending on time period" and race in question!

    E.G. this isn't necessarily a race issue, but a social class issue.

    Look at the history, and notice the similarities:

    Interracial marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    OF COURSE in the USA black people were abused in this regard (and the white people who married them).

    But regardless of that recent history, interracial marriage has been a staple of human development for thousands of years.

    So it's a misdirect to suggest that this is some long running conundrum like homosexuality has been. (and is an attempt by the poster to call me the equivalent of 'racist')

    It's equivalent to calling someone 'judgmental' for saying that heroin use is detrimental to the person and society. (in other words, nonsense)
    Last edited by SingleCellOrganism; 10-08-13 at 05:02 PM.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleCellOrganism View Post
    Yes I am.

    But as I mentioned "depending on time period" and race in question!

    E.G. this isn't necessarily a race issue, but a social class issue.

    Look at the history, and notice the similarities:

    Interracial marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    OF COURSE in the USA black people were abused in this regard (and the white people who married them).

    But regardless of that recent history, interracial marriage has been a staple of human development for thousands of years.

    So it's a misdirect to suggest that this is some long running conundrum like homosexuality has been. (and is an attempt by the poster to call me the equivalent of 'racist')

    It's equivalent to calling someone 'judgmental' for saying that heroin use is detrimental to the person and society. (in other words, nonsense)
    This simply isn't true. There are many cultures that have been very much against interracial relationships. There are still many cultures today that frown upon intercultural relationships, including many Asian cultures (some only okay them if they are marrying an American).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This simply isn't true. There are many cultures that have been very much against interracial relationships. There are still many cultures today that frown upon intercultural relationships, including many Asian cultures (some only okay them if they are marrying an American).
    That isn't true!

    Asia (the continent) had long periods of intermarriage with Arabs, Turks and Europeans (China, Japan, Korea, etc).

    There are conversely periods where that was frowned on.

    But if you look at the time period, it's almost NEVER about race, and almost ALWAYS about social status/class warfare.

    Regarding homosexuality or incest it's hard to judge social reaction, for example in Greece the 'homosexuals' were actually pedophiles. There weren't many same age homosexual relationships (that we're aware of). So their reaction against homosexuality could possibly be caused by the pedophilia involved, rather than rejecting same-sex sex. Similarly with Rome.

    Incest and homosexuality is naturally offensive (IMO), unlike interracial marriage, which I think explains the consistent anti-homosexual views throughout history. (incest is obviously naturally offensive, no need to investigate)

    Rome and Greece are truly poor examples, since the vast majority of their homosexual acts were actually 'boy love'. E.G. a socially dominant older male with a young boy. But still they became violently anti-homosexual.

    In China the history is a little more varied - Confucians weren't anti-homosexual, but many Taoist and Buddhist writings are.

    Oh well ... I don't care what anyone else does. Free will and choice should be all anyone is concerned with. E.G. legalize gay marriage, legalize drugs and anything like it.
    Last edited by SingleCellOrganism; 10-08-13 at 07:16 PM.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I have said multiple times that I believe there should be an exception for such cases allowing them to marry. I think they should have to be the ones to prove though that they weren't raised together, to a judge and let the judge decide, just as many states now have judges deciding whether those under 18 (or other ages) can get married.
    But where is the raised together point that such an aversion would develop? Let's use the Brady Bunch as an example, because well that's a perfect spread. So would we deny Bobby and Cindy but allow Greg and Marcia? Where would Peter and Jan fit in? When does the aversion develop? Why should the couple have to prove that the aversion is not there? I would say that if there is abuse then it is the state's responsibility to prove it as with any other abuse case.

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleCellOrganism View Post
    Of course not! Interracial marriage has almost always been acceptable (depending on time period). This is a misdirect which doesn't deal honestly with the discussion.
    No it's not a misdirect. It's pointing out a very factual and historically repeated event; that which people claim will never be accepted can indeed become accepted. Does it happen with everything? Who knows? We can only point out what has not been accepted yet, or has been repeatedly accepted and then later fall back into the not accepted category. But in reality you can not claim that it will never become accepted. You can doubt that it will ever happen in your lifetime (or even assure it if you have little time left), but never is a long time and things can, do and have changed.

    We aren't talking about natural sexual behavior, but same-sex or sibling sex.
    By whose standard? We can certainly claim that homosexuality and incest are not statistically normal, and to a lesser degree polygamy, but there is really no evidence that it is not natural.

    Natural sex - no detriment, within the confines of marriage (fornication will kill a society with poorly raised children - so marriage is key)
    Define what constitutes a detriment. We all have our different ideas as to what that would be. Sorry, fornication does not automatically equate to kids, yet alone poorly raised one. In addition, I doubt that you would find many people who will claim heterosexual behaviour outside of a marriage as "unnatural", which by your quoted definition, it would be.

    Sibling / same-sex - social detriment (focus on the fulfilling of 'sexual desire' leads to unreasonable and narcissistic people)
    Again, by what standard? We historically have several cultures, including Roman and many Native American, that have no negative stigma with same sex pairings. Sibling/shared blood? I'd have to look into that a little more. While there are indeed those cultures, most in fact, that have shunned such pairings, it would not surprise me to find a few who were neutral towards it. With that I would doubt that there would be many incidences due to the natural aversion, so to them it would probably be a non-issue since the rate would be so extremely low. I'm not sure how one would go about it as there probably wouldn't be any note if they were indifferent to it.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    But where is the raised together point that such an aversion would develop? Let's use the Brady Bunch as an example, because well that's a perfect spread. So would we deny Bobby and Cindy but allow Greg and Marcia? Where would Peter and Jan fit in? When does the aversion develop? Why should the couple have to prove that the aversion is not there? I would say that if there is abuse then it is the state's responsibility to prove it as with any other abuse case.
    Research tells us that it takes so many years after a certain point, but in general, it only takes a sibling watching their younger sibling being taken care of by a "mother". I posted the research.

    So yes, for many stepfamilies, they really shouldn't be marrying, at least not if the parents got together before the children were teenagers.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleCellOrganism View Post
    That isn't true!

    Asia (the continent) had long periods of intermarriage with Arabs, Turks and Europeans (China, Japan, Korea, etc).

    There are conversely periods where that was frowned on.

    But if you look at the time period, it's almost NEVER about race, and almost ALWAYS about social status/class warfare.

    Regarding homosexuality or incest it's hard to judge social reaction, for example in Greece the 'homosexuals' were actually pedophiles. There weren't many same age homosexual relationships (that we're aware of). So their reaction against homosexuality could possibly be caused by the pedophilia involved, rather than rejecting same-sex sex. Similarly with Rome.

    Incest and homosexuality is naturally offensive (IMO), unlike interracial marriage, which I think explains the consistent anti-homosexual views throughout history. (incest is obviously naturally offensive, no need to investigate)

    Rome and Greece are truly poor examples, since the vast majority of their homosexual acts were actually 'boy love'. E.G. a socially dominant older male with a young boy. But still they became violently anti-homosexual.

    In China the history is a little more varied - Confucians weren't anti-homosexual, but many Taoist and Buddhist writings are.

    Oh well ... I don't care what anyone else does. Free will and choice should be all anyone is concerned with. E.G. legalize gay marriage, legalize drugs and anything like it.
    It is true. At least for a certain portion of our recent history.

    But then again, there are many things that are different from history overall. Never before until quite recently has love been the main reason for marriages. Not in most major societies anyway. And in very few major societies were women given full equality to women legally.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Pa. gov: Gay marriage is like marriage of siblings

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Research tells us that it takes so many years after a certain point, but in general, it only takes a sibling watching their younger sibling being taken care of by a "mother". I posted the research.

    So yes, for many stepfamilies, they really shouldn't be marrying, at least not if the parents got together before the children were teenagers.
    I noticed that one article noted that it can also take as long as 14 years before the aversion developed in siblings who didn't start early life together.

    More intriguingly, when the subject had seen the sibling as a newborn, it did not matter how long the two had lived together, the incest aversion was equally strong. For younger siblings (and the small cohort of older siblings who had not seen their younger brothers and sisters with their mothers), this aversion was not as strong unless they had lived together for at least 14 years.
    So with that you might have an argument for Bobby and Cindy, but not really for Peter and Jan and not at all for Greg and Marcia (staying with the example). And how does this aversion apply to the Aunt/Uncle to Niece/Nephew relations, or cousins? Hell we can't even assume that there will be an age difference nowadays. My wife's niece has 2 aunts and an uncle who are younger than she is (my wife's half siblings by her dad's second marriage). Now, for full disclosure, they actually did grow up together (the half-brother and the niece are only 3 months apart. There's a funny story my sister-in-law loves telling about that period) so the aversion is most likely there by all observations. However, if they hadn't grown up in the same area, where would that all fit in? And even if they had, what if the aversion had not developed?

    I also noted this passage:
    First, our data indicate that sexual aversions are triggered by exposure to cues of genetic relatedness: seeing one's biological mother caring for an infant (MPA cue), or living in the same household with a child for most of one's own childhood (coresidence duration cue). If an individual has not been exposed to either of these cues, then the sexual aversion will not be triggered. This means that individuals may be more incestuously inclined when their upbringing has disrupted their exposure to these cues of kinship: regardless of their conscious beliefs, the brain mechanism that detects siblings will not have tagged that person as a sibling. The results in such cases may be tragic, but they do not stem from a malfunctioning of the brain.
    Unsaid, but equally true, it would not stem from abuse either. The abuse argument would seem to only really apply to...well abuse, for which there are already laws. For which I would certainly agree, should such happen, regardless of when the abuse occurred, that the abusing sibling (I won't assume the older, although I concede that would be the most likely) should suffer the consequences. But like all other abuse cases, the state must prove the abuse.

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