• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Can President Obama Unilaterally Raise the Debt Ceiling?

Remember the days of past when Obama condemned Bush's use of the Chinese credit card and called Bush unpatriotic for supporting an increase in the debt ceiling?

The media seems to have forgotten, but that time existed. It occurred about the same time Obama was blasting Hillary's health insurance mandate.

Obama is a pathological liar and hypocrite.
 
The US will NOT, and I repeat will NOT default on its debt. That's a talking point and is an outright lie to ill-informed people. All it means is that money targeted for something else will now be used to pay down debt. As an example, instead of 500 million to Solyndra, we pay our debt. Doesn't get more simple than that.


Tim-

I've been saying the same thing.

In wish the stupid party, ie, the GOP, would step and simply ask when Obama threatens us with the risk of default, "Mr. President, why would you choose not to service the National debt?" Put him on the spot...
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/business/wall-st-fears-go-beyond-shutdown.html?hp&_r=0

If the debt ceiling is not raised by [Oct 17], the Treasury estimates it will be left with about only $30 billion in cash, which would be used up in a matter of days.

As a result, economists and investors have quietly begun to explore the options the White House might have in the event Congress fails to act.

The most widely discussed strategy would be for President Obama to invoke authority under the 14th Amendment and essentially order the federal government to keep borrowing, an option that was endorsed by former President Bill Clinton during an earlier debt standoff in 2011.

And in recent days, prominent Democrats like Senator Max Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, and Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House minority leader, have urged the White House to seriously consider such a route, even if it might provoke a threat of impeachment from House Republicans and ultimately require the Supreme Court to rule on its legitimacy.

Other potential October surprises range from the logistically forbidding, like prioritizing payments, issuing i.o.u.’s or selling off gold and other assets, to more fanciful ideas, like minting a trillion-dollar platinum coin.


The trillion dollar coin idea, reminiscent of Mr. Burns, is based on a law that says that the US can mint a coin of pure platinum in any denomination, essentially giving us $1T extra to use in case of a looming default.

If the effects of a debt default would be so grievous to the economy, would Obama see it necessary to use his authority to raise the debt ceiling himself?

And where would it go from there?

There is absolutely NOTHING in the 14th Amendment that would allow the President to do such a thing.

Section 4 (which they are talking about) talks about DEBT, not the raising of money. Not to mention it specifically states in section 5 that "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.", NOT the President or executive office. I was against this when they wanted Clinton to do it. I am STILL against it now.
 
There is absolutely NOTHING in the 14th Amendment that would allow the President to do such a thing.

Section 4 (which they are talking about) talks about DEBT, not the raising of money. Not to mention it specifically states in section 5 that "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.", NOT the President or executive office. I was against this when they wanted Clinton to do it. I am STILL against it now.

Congress may not do something which is unconstitutional, which failing to honor the debt would be. It's an unusual situation, to be sure, but the President can plausibly claim that he's upholding the Constitution in the face of an illegal default by Congress. The Supreme Court is generally reluctant to rule on disputes between the other two branches unless they see a crystal clear verdict, preferring to see such questions settled through the political process.
 
Congress may not do something which is unconstitutional, which failing to honor the debt would be. It's an unusual situation, to be sure, but the President can plausibly claim that he's upholding the Constitution in the face of an illegal default by Congress. The Supreme Court is generally reluctant to rule on disputes between the other two branches unless they see a crystal clear verdict, preferring to see such questions settled through the political process.

1: Failing to act is not unconstitutional. 2: There is nothing in the 14th which talks about honoring a debt. Just that the validity of the debt shall not be questioned. 3: It is not up to the President to determine what is and is not constitutional. That is left up to SCOTUS and somewhat the legislative branch (in the effect of trying to appeal a law the politicians feel is unconstitutional). 4: The Executive branch has NO power (real or imagined) of raising revenue or making new law or bill or anything else that is with in the legislatives power. There is a reason that it is called the "Executive" branch. Not the "Legislative" branch. The executive branch may only execute what the Legislative branch not only makes law on but also in how much money the Executive branch allows spending on. It is not the Legislatives job to spend the money, it is the Executives job. It was one of the checks that they put on the government to prevent one or the other from getting too much power.

It should also be noted that the ONLY reason that part was added to the 14th Amendment was to settle some questions that had arisen due to the Civil War. It was never meant to be applied to anything beyond that.
 
Raising a debt ceiling for present payments implies the money was never there. Debt ceilings are for future expenditures. We don't have an FY14 budget. It's FY13 money that is keeping things going.

Yeah. And promises to pay interest on debt, continue chemotherapy on patients, and pay hospitals and doctors on bills already incurred are considered future expenditures.

But don't let facts get in the way of your thinking, as usual.
 
There is absolutely NOTHING in the 14th Amendment that would allow the President to do such a thing.

While we have no reason to doubt your crack legal opinion, I think I'll stick with real lawyers, including the Constitutional Law Professor in the White House.

My prediction-

I have no doubt that Obama will use the 14th, or the trillion dollar coin option, to avoid default. I can see the TP calling for impeachment, which could lead to the most ludicrous impeachment proceedings ever....where a President is accused of thwarting Economic terrorists. This will signal the end of the GOP.
 
He wouldn't have to do anything if crazy conservatives weren't forcing him.

That reminds me of an abusive husband telling his wife, "I wouldn't beat you if you weren't forcing me to..."


If Obama attempts to raise the national debt without Congress, I would expect a quick and strong impeachment to proceed immediately. No President, for any reason should be allowed to usurp the Constitution. The lame excuse that there is some new interpretation of the 14th, section 4 is quickly stomped on by section 5.
 
That reminds me of an abusive husband telling his wife, "I wouldn't beat you if you weren't forcing me to..."


If Obama attempts to raise the national debt without Congress, I would expect a quick and strong impeachment to proceed immediately. No President, for any reason should be allowed to usurp the Constitution. The lame excuse that there is some new interpretation of the 14th, section 4 is quickly stomped on by section 5.

More Orwellian reversal of reality. The GOP is the husband with the gun saying "don't make me hurt you." Obama, if anything, is the wife running out of the house and calling the police.
 
Obama and the Dems were not making any demands of the Republicans. Check me if I am wrong but the Republicans were making the demands and basically saying if you don't do this we are shutting the government down how is it Obama's fault again or Dems? Hell America doesn't agree with how Republicans have acted, are they not the party of the people.

You and 80% of the population agree. But the T's still won't budge because they don't care what the people want. They answer to another drummer. Their billionaire benefactors are calling the shots and the threat of all that money being used against them is keeping the rest of the party in line. It's a very bad situation directly caused by the Citizens United decision. The court really needs to reconsider their ruling before our democracy is bought and tossed away.
 
More Orwellian reversal of reality. The GOP is the husband with the gun saying "don't make me hurt you." Obama, if anything, is the wife running out of the house and calling the police.

Wrong - Obama's saying "Don't force me to unilaterally raise the debt ceiling" is what's going on.
 
If the effects of a debt default would be so grievous to the economy, would Obama see it necessary to use his authority to raise the debt ceiling himself?

And where would it go from there?

i don't support this option, as it sets a dangerous precedent. however, if brinkmanship causes a default, we're in for a long, dark night.
 
While we have no reason to doubt your crack legal opinion, I think I'll stick with real lawyers, including the Constitutional Law Professor in the White House.

My prediction-

I have no doubt that Obama will use the 14th, or the trillion dollar coin option, to avoid default. I can see the TP calling for impeachment, which could lead to the most ludicrous impeachment proceedings ever....where a President is accused of thwarting Economic terrorists. This will signal the end of the GOP.

Oh yes, lets continue with the "Constitutional Law Professor in the White House"....isn't it the same one that claimed it was OK for Bush to waterboard terrorists? And no, impeachment would NOT be ludicrous. Obama has already ignored enough of the Constitution. I personally feel that he should have been impeach a long time ago. But frankly people are too scared to impeach the first black president. (and before you play the race card...I though he should have been impeached when he bombed Libya even after the limit that is placed in the Constitution and with out once having had Congressional approval, a VERY legitimate reason)

The rest of your post is nothing more than hyperbole.
 
Nice dodge.

Again, whose making demands in this situation?

No dodge at all.

The House passed legislation and the President and Senate have enacted a partial shutdown of the government demanding changes to that legislation.
 
Oh yes, lets continue with the "Constitutional Law Professor in the White House"....isn't it the same one that claimed it was OK for Bush to waterboard terrorists? And no, impeachment would NOT be ludicrous. Obama has already ignored enough of the Constitution. I personally feel that he should have been impeach a long time ago. But frankly people are too scared to impeach the first black president. (and before you play the race card...I though he should have been impeached when he bombed Libya even after the limit that is placed in the Constitution and with out once having had Congressional approval, a VERY legitimate reason)

The rest of your post is nothing more than hyperbole.

Oh, yeah. He should be impeached for....stuff.

I bet you have a long list of impeachable 'offenses' to list. Spare us the details.

But in non-bizarro land, impeaching a President for exercising Good judgement in not letting the nation default would be absolutely inexcusable.
 
Oh, yeah. He should be impeached for....stuff.

I bet you have a long list of impeachable 'offenses' to list. Spare us the details.

But in non-bizarro land, impeaching a President for exercising Good judgement in not letting the nation default would be absolutely inexcusable.

Nope, don't have a long list. Just Libya.

And it is NOT good judgement for the President to TAKE more power for themselves and TAKE power away from those that do have the power. No matter the reason. If our legislative body can't get their act together enough to pass a spending bill then we DESERVE to take a hit for this. Its called taking responsibility and accepting the consequences for ones actions. And frankly people need to learn this. And every single person in this country would be at fault for LETTING our legislative body for acting like spoiled little brats. Both Republicans AND Democrats are to blame here. Instead of demanding that the President violate the Constitution you should be clamoring at your congressmen and senators to get thier act together, and if they don't vote them the heck out of office. Too many congressmen and senators keep getting re-elected when they should have been booted long ago. And that is The Peoples fault.
 
No dodge at all.

The House passed legislation and the President and Senate have enacted a partial shutdown of the government demanding changes to that legislation.

spinning like mad I see. Passing a CR with ranson demands on it. That's the house fabricating demands. They will fail.
 
spinning like mad I see. Passing a CR with ranson demands on it. That's the house fabricating demands. They will fail.

LOL. Spin? No spin at all. It's the truth and you just don't like the truth. Here it is again: "The House passed legislation and the President and Senate have enacted a partial shutdown of the government demanding changes to that legislation."

If you are not happy with Obama and the Senate Dems holding the federal government "hostage" (a term the liberals have been using) complain to them. They are the ones that have instituted a partial federal government shutdown, not the GOP. The GOP passed a bill that would have funded the government.
 
spinning like mad I see. Passing a CR with ranson demands on it. That's the house fabricating demands. They will fail.

So, where's your presidents leadership? I swear, all we have in DC are children.
 
So, where's your presidents leadership? I swear, all we have in DC are children.

HOw does a demcratic president lead a house full of tempertantrum throwing republicans who admit that their only goal was to stand against him by all means necessary?
 
LOL. Spin? No spin at all. It's the truth and you just don't like the truth. Here it is again: "The House passed legislation and the President and Senate have enacted a partial shutdown of the government demanding changes to that legislation."

If you are not happy with Obama and the Senate Dems holding the federal government "hostage" (a term the liberals have been using) complain to them. They are the ones that have instituted a partial federal government shutdown, not the GOP. The GOP passed a bill that would have funded the government.

And what happens when the President sends back the CR and says he won't sign it unless funding is put in to register all handguns federally?


When the House refuses to compromise will you say the House is being unreasonable and the President ISNT holding the country hostage?

It's the same thing, but reversed.
 
Wrong - Obama's saying "Don't force me to unilaterally raise the debt ceiling" is what's going on.

No, Obama has specifically said he will not raise the debt ceiling unilaterally, that he doesn't believe the 14th Amendment is empowered to. He is saying to Congress "Do your job."
 
No, Obama has specifically said he will not raise the debt ceiling unilaterally, that he doesn't believe the 14th Amendment is empowered to. He is saying to Congress "Do your job."

That's what he has to say.

But when Jack Lew comes into his office and says- 'I need to write the interest check on the bonds', you know damn well he's gonna pull out his trillion dollar coin.
 
Back
Top Bottom