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Thread: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

  1. #191
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Agreed. So I'd rephrase my statement as the "hyperbole" may not actually be hyperbole.
    Only it is hyperbole. It is applying a word with a specific meaning about something that is really bad to something that is not equal in proportion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    But what are the Republicans willing to give up? Like it or hate it, Obama care is law and is already funded. The GOP would need need control of the House, Presidency, and 60 votes in the Senate to make any substantial changes. In other words, there's no real chance of changing the ACA without bipartisan support.

    That means that in order to repeal the ACA through negotiation, the GOP would have to offer the Democrats something they want more than the ACA. The only thing the GOP is offering is to not shut down the government. Since that's bad for everyone, it's not a compromise or a negotiation. It's a threat.
    Why should the republicans HAVE to give something up? Do democrats have to give something up to enact the gun control that they want? To allow pro-choice in regards to abortion? Or for a more topical example...what did the democrats give up to get Obamacare enacted? I mean if we are really talking about a "give and take" bi-partisan system shouldn't the democrats have given something to the republicans in order to have a more bi-partisan Obamacare enacted?

    In reality this bit of poopska has shown me that neither the democrats nor the republicans actually really and truely cared about preventing a government shut down and instead just used this as another opportunity for more finger pointing in order to try and garner more votes for "their" side in order to win elections so that they can stay in power and get more power and money.
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  2. #192
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    What's different now is that the Tea Partiers don't realize that it's always been a game. They're actually willing to pull the trigger on these things.
    Actually I'm pretty sure that they know the game. They are playing it to the hilt. Refer to my previous post.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Only it is hyperbole. It is applying a word with a specific meaning about something that is really bad to something that is not equal in proportion.



    Why should the republicans HAVE to give something up? Do democrats have to give something up to enact the gun control that they want? To allow pro-choice in regards to abortion? Or for a more topical example...what did the democrats give up to get Obamacare enacted? I mean if we are really talking about a "give and take" bi-partisan system shouldn't the democrats have given something to the republicans in order to have a more bi-partisan Obamacare enacted?

    In reality this bit of poopska has shown me that neither the democrats nor the republicans actually really and truely cared about preventing a government shut down and instead just used this as another opportunity for more finger pointing in order to try and garner more votes for "their" side in order to win elections so that they can stay in power and get more power and money.
    Because if you're not offering something in return then it's blackmail. Unless the GOP can get 60 votes in the Senate, control of the house, and control of the Presidency the ACA is going into effect. It's already law. And while one could argue that the Democrats compromised by giving up a single payer system, it's really irrelevant to the present debate. We are where we are.

    But really, this is just a dress rehearsal for the debt ceiling. .

  4. #194
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Sorry Charlie....but America should not...and will never negotiate with people who engage in "terroristic-type" strategies. The American people are by overwhelming numbers aware of the gamesmanship and aren't buying into the ploys any more than I am.
    Your definition is screwed up if you think this is a terrorist strategy.
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post

    Civics 101. Fiscal bills are started in the house, they go to the senate where they are either ratified or modified. Then they go to conference committee where the house and the senate work out their differences. That's the way the constitution lays it out.

    Here's Obamacare. Democrats rammed the bill through on a parliamentary maneuver with no republican support. Upon implementation, when the government needed yet another continuing resolution to keep the government running, republicans in the house authored a bill which de-funded Obamacare. It went to the senate and the senate just rejected it with no amendment and no call to conference. Then the house authored a second set of CR's which paid for the military and delayed the start of the bill for private individuals, just like they did for business. It also stripped away the special consideration that congress gets to pay for this mess. Again, Obama played golf over the weekend, Pelosi took the weekend off and Reid came to work late. Again, no conference.

    It seems to me that republicans have shown at least a small bit of flexibility and democrats are not the least interested in listening to republicans or the American people.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  6. #196
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I agree, it should be done with decorum and professionalism. But that is not the way reality is. As I said before, both democrats and republicans have used the same exact tactic lots of times and found it acceptable behavior. Yet this time its "wrong" its "terrorist type behavior"? It is either wrong all the time no matter the party or it is not wrong and acceptable no matter the party. You cannot have it both ways.
    When have the Democrats shut down the government in order to force negotiations?
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wow, with people like you there is no wonder California is in such sad state. You deserve to live in the highest taxed state in the country with the most minimum wage workers and highest debt. You really need to grow up, maybe one of these days it will happen.

    I know I am not nearly as educated as you so that is why I have asked Obama supporters to provide me with the credible sites that they use to verify the Obama rhetoric and that show what a great job he is doing as President. You see, results matter and I know that liberals like you have those results which cause you to sell your soul to the liberal party. It is just that I cannot find those positive results.

    Now on the issue o ACA, in your world apparently it is ok for Obama to exempt certain groups, negotiate with the unions on their exemptions, but ignore the Republican Party which represents the majority in this country as evidenced by the number in the "People's House" or did you not know that Congressional elections show where the majority reside?

    I know this is very hard for someone like you who works at Disneyland to understand but Bush has been out of office for 5 years and only in your Fantasyland are the economic results today still his responsibility.
    Once again your facts are wrong. I guess it is easy to "support" your position when you make up your own statistics.

    You should take a look at the facts....under a Democratic Governor, California now has a budget surplus after years of deficits under Republican control.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  8. #198
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Civics 101. Fiscal bills are started in the house, they go to the senate where they are either ratified or modified. Then they go to conference committee where the house and the senate work out their differences. That's the way the constitution lays it out.

    Here's Obamacare. Democrats rammed the bill through on a parliamentary maneuver with no republican support. Upon implementation, when the government needed yet another continuing resolution to keep the government running, republicans in the house authored a bill which de-funded Obamacare. It went to the senate and the senate just rejected it with no amendment and no call to conference. Then the house authored a second set of CR's which paid for the military and delayed the start of the bill for private individuals, just like they did for business. It also stripped away the special consideration that congress gets to pay for this mess. Again, Obama played golf over the weekend, Pelosi took the weekend off and Reid came to work late. Again, no conference.

    It seems to me that republicans have shown at least a small bit of flexibility and democrats are not the least interested in listening to republicans or the American people.
    if you care to look at the timeline it took a long time to pass.

    Timeline of the health care law - CNN.com

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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Your definition is screwed up if you think this is a terrorist strategy.
    Not screwed up at all. Terrorists often take hostages to try to negotiate things that they don't have a right to negotiate. This is exactly what the Republicans are trying to do here.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  10. #200
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    Re: Obama Address the Nation on the government shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    When have the Democrats shut down the government in order to force negotiations?
    I believe Mithros already provided a link that answers your question. But also remember that actual shut downs are just half of the evidence. Threatening it and getting what they want and therefore letting a bill/law pass or letting the government continue without a shut down is the other half.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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