CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176:468]

iguanaman · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
It was a split Congress from 2001-2003, Republican Controlled 2003-2006, and Democrat controlled 2007-2009. You will notice that liberals post the same distorted charts over and over again, run when challenged and then come back later with the same charts hoping apparently that eventually they become true. That is typical liberalism and since liberals believe what they are told by the elites it doesn't really matter what the facts show.

LOL and Conservatives only believe lies. Because only with lies can they justify any of their positions. Facts have a liberal bias after all.

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
And you are so typical of a desperate Righty. You cannot face the truth because it conflicts with you twisted world view. Like a religous zealot defending creation to a scientist,. all you have is "faith" which is another way of saying you only see what you want to see. Because of that the rest of this post will look blank to you. The rest of us will see the truth though.

The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton

Let me ask you something and I really don't mean to be disrespectful but do you have a reading comprehension problem? The CBO is the CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE so please look up exactly what they do. They do not establish what the taxpayers pay in debt service because they do nothing to establish the record of the debt. The Treasury Dept. does. Please show me the Clinton surplus in the Treasury Numbers? I don't know what it takes to get through to people like you. The debt is made up of two parts, Public Debt PLUS Intergovt. holdings. You can have a public debt surplus but an intergovt. holding deficit that wipes it all out. What you continue to do is report the public debt surplus which was money taken from intergovt. hodings(Medicare and SS) Intergovt. holdings are long term taxpayer obligations and a growing debt.

The debt under Clinton rose every year so there was no total surplus. Let me know when the light bulb goes off if it ever does.

Government - Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 2000 - 2012

iguanaman · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
Let me ask you something and I really don't mean to be disrespectful but do you have a reading comprehension problem? The CBO is the CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE so please look up exactly what they do. They do not establish what the taxpayers pay in debt service because they do nothing to establish the record of the debt. The Treasury Dept. does. Please show me the Clinton surplus in the Treasury Numbers? I don't know what it takes to get through to people like you. The debt is made up of two parts, Public Debt PLUS Intergovt. holdings. You can have a public debt surplus but an intergovt. holding deficit that wipes it all out. What you continue to do is report the public debt surplus which was money taken from intergovt. hodings(Medicare and SS) Intergovt. holdings are long term taxpayer obligations and a growing debt.

Government - Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 2000 - 2012

You need some new glasses. You missed this from my link....

This is based on an annual document called the "Financial Report of the U.S. Government," which reports what the governments books would look like if kept on an accrual basis like those of most corporations, rather than the cash basis that the government has always used. The principal difference is that under accrual accounting the government would book immediately the costs of promises made to pay future benefits to government workers and Social Security and Medicare beneficiaries. But even under accrual accounting, the annual reports showed surpluses of $69.2 billion in fiscal 1998, $76.9 billion in fiscal 1999, and $46 billion for fiscal year 2000. So even if the government had been using that form of accounting the deficit would have been erased for those three years.

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
LOL and Conservatives only believe lies. Because only with lies can they justify any of their positions. Facts have a liberal bias after all.

You are absolutely correct, the Treasury Dept lies, the BLS lies, the BEA lies, the Congressional record lies, Tom Daschle, Senate Majority leader from 2001-2002 was obviously a Republican but only for those two years, and only liberals like you tell the truth.

I find it interesting that you call what you post facts. The facts simply are something you will never understand. You see the chart you posted was factual but only half the story as you ignored how we had a surplus and why we still had a yearly deficit. Let me know when the light bulb goes off.

I wonder if this will help you, probably not

The Myth of the Clinton Surplus |

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
You need some new glasses. You missed this from my link....

And you missed the point that the taxpayers pay debt service on a cash basis and debt service is the fourth largest budget item. What purpose does it serve to post a totally worthless chart like you just posted? When you give your money to the govt. it is owed back to you due to promises made, when it is replaced with an IOU it is an obligation thus a long term liability.

Again, please read the article and see if that light bulb will go off. I keep wondering what it is about liberals like you who cannot accept reality. Further what exact purpose does it serve other than to divert from Obama to continue to debate the so called Clinton surplus which really didn't exist?

The Myth of the Clinton Surplus |

iguanaman · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
And you missed the point that the taxpayers pay debt service on a cash basis and debt service is the fourth largest budget item. What purpose does it serve to post a totally worthless chart like you just posted? When you give your money to the govt. it is owed back to you due to promises made, when it is replaced with an IOU it is an obligation thus a long term liability.

Again, please read the article and see if that light bulb will go off. I keep wondering what it is about liberals like you who cannot accept reality. Further what exact purpose does it serve other than to divert from Obama to continue to debate the so called Clinton surplus which really didn't exist?

The Myth of the Clinton Surplus |

How about a non-biased link like the factcheck one I gave? Your link is to a rightwing blog....that is written by an equally blind zealot.. The blind leading the blind is not a rebuttal, sorry.

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
How about a non-biased link like the factcheck one I gave? Your link is to a rightwing blog....that is written by an equally blind zealot.. The blind leading the blind is not a rebuttal, sorry.

The link references the Treasury data link that I post over and over again. It is obvious that there is no link that will satisfy your ignorance. The facts are quite evident, debt went up each year and if there was as surplus that debt wouldn't go up each year. Debt service is part of the budget so any so called surplus pays for the debt service so I know this is hard for you to understand, liberals lie for personal gain and all this shows is how little credibility liberals have. What you don't seem to understand is that the blog reports Treasury Dept Data so you want to refute the Treasury data based upon the person who reported it is typical liberal excuses.

ItAin'tFree · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
And you are so typical of a desperate Righty. You cannot face the truth because it conflicts with you twisted world view. Like a religous zealot defending creation to a scientist,. all you have is "faith" which is another way of saying you only see what you want to see. Because of that the rest of this post will look blank to you. The rest of us will see the truth though.

The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton

This chart claims a "surplus" of 236.2B. Once again, the CBO followed the instructions from the Dems to produce some number they wanted produced. But where's the money? They show some number's representing money but where did that money go if it was a "surplus"? As a taxpayer, I didn't get a rebate. As a taxpayer, my taxes were not reduced by my share of this phony "surplus". The federal debt kept right on increasing those years and that would be impossible if there was a "surplus".

Once again, show me this "surplus". Where is that money?

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

ItAin'tFree said:
This chart claims a "surplus" of 236.2B. Once again, the CBO followed the instructions from the Dems to produce some number they wanted produced. But where's the money? They show some number's representing money but where did that money go if it was a "surplus"? As a taxpayer, I didn't get a rebate. As a taxpayer, my taxes were not reduced by my share of this phony "surplus". The federal debt kept right on increasing those years and that would be impossible if there was a "surplus".

Once again, show me this "surplus". Where is that money?

Makes you wonder what it is about liberalism that creates this kind of loyalty that ignores actual verifiable data and buys what a agency that takes Congressional data and assumptions and puts them into analysis based upon that data. If the data is wrong the output is wrong. The one thing that will never change is Treasury Data and that Treasury Data is what the Taxpayers pay debt service on. Clinton took office with a 4.4 trillion debt and left it at 5.7 trillion. I don't see the surpluses in any Treasury Data numbers but in the liberal world that is irrelevant. In the real world however we paid debt service on an apparent liberal reported surplus. I want my money back for that debt service.

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

calamity said:
Unlike you, I can read a graph.

Why is that graph 4 years old?

iguanaman · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
The link references the Treasury data link that I post over and over again. It is obvious that there is no link that will satisfy your ignorance. The facts are quite evident, debt went up each year and if there was as surplus that debt wouldn't go up each year. Debt service is part of the budget so any so called surplus pays for the debt service so I know this is hard for you to understand, liberals lie for personal gain and all this shows is how little credibility liberals have. What you don't seem to understand is that the blog reports Treasury Dept Data so you want to refute the Treasury data based upon the person who reported it is typical liberal excuses.

You have been duped by your own partisanship. The reason the treasury shows debt going up is because it is money the govt. owes trust funds.
Here's a post that explains your mistake. Don''t feel bad it is easy to believe what you MUST to keep your fantasy alive. It's a bitch to live in a dream world. Don't you at least find yourself wondering why you have to get all your info from right wing blogs?

You and Craig Steiner need a refresher course in government accounting. Receipts into any federal trust fund INCREASE the public debt, they do not reduce it. This is because the funds are immediately invested in Treasury securities so as to earn interest until obligated and expended, and any issuance of Treasury securities increases the public debt. When expended, Treasury securities are redeemed by the trust funds and the cash is used to fund the outlays authorized. This causes public debt to go down. Thus, an increase in debt associated with these trust funds is evidence of a SURPLUS of taxes and other receipts over expenditures made. You are trying to use one surplus to argue that another one didn't exist.
You and Steiner are hardly the only ones who are "confused" as to the actual relationship between debt and deficit. Many bogus right-wing articles try to pull the very same hoax. Just because the numbers they use are taken from valid sources does not mean that the numbers are being used correctly, and in these cases, they most definitely are not.
Bottom line is that the Clinton surpluses were quite real and there is nothing that can magically go back and erase them. Just as real were the ten-year budget projections of surplus upon surplus that Bushie walked in and destroyed in favor of his tax cuts for the rich programs that have served us so well since. Real and projected surpluses to god-awful real and projected deficits. This is the path that the right-wingers have walked us down. Nice going, guys.

Read more: Surplus Myth exposed again (generations, economic, national debt, money) - Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Third Parties, Left-Wing, Right-Wing, Congress, President - Page 2 - City-Data Forum

calamity · Oct 4, 2013

Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

Lord of Planar said:
Why is that graph 4 years old?

Because that was the fist one to pop up.

Here's a current one...as if it matters.

Notice how the recession was much deeper than the one in 2001, but seems to be following along the same change-rate path.

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
You really do yourself a disservice by mentioning how Obama saved the Bush tax cuts but not how he ended them. It shows your narrow minded partisanship.The deficit is HALF of what it was when Obama took office. Bush took a surplus and turned it into record deficits. That is how to judge the financial prudence of a President. By which direction he moves the deficit. Bush fails miserably as do every Republican before him since Reagan.

I challenge you to prove that chart correct.

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

JMak00 said:
The deficit is meaningless...it's the national debt held by the fed govt that matters. Obama, if Presidents are to be held responsible,has increased that by 90%, despite deficits being smaller. Quite a feat, no?

So, take your head out of the sand.

Yep.

As long as there is a deficit, the debt is increasing. Not decreasing.

Do liberals not understand this concept?

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
And you are so typical of a desperate Righty. You cannot face the truth because it conflicts with you twisted world view. Like a religous zealot defending creation to a scientist,. all you have is "faith" which is another way of saying you only see what you want to see. Because of that the rest of this post will look blank to you. The rest of us will see the truth though.

The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton

That image is an intellectual lie.

Riddle me this.

If Clinton had a surplus, why did the debt increase all of those years?

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
You are absolutely correct, the Treasury Dept lies, the BLS lies, the BEA lies, the Congressional record lies, Tom Daschle, Senate Majority leader from 2001-2002 was obviously a Republican but only for those two years, and only liberals like you tell the truth.

I find it interesting that you call what you post facts. The facts simply are something you will never understand. You see the chart you posted was factual but only half the story as you ignored how we had a surplus and why we still had a yearly deficit. Let me know when the light bulb goes off.

I wonder if this will help you, probably not

The Myth of the Clinton Surplus |

I doubt it will convince any of these people who debate with these lies. Afterall, this fact has been pointed out since day of of the surplus claim, yet the lie continues.

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
How about a non-biased link like the factcheck one I gave? Your link is to a rightwing blog....that is written by an equally blind zealot.. The blind leading the blind is not a rebuttal, sorry.

I see.

So that makes the truth... a lie...

What planet are you from?

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

iguanaman said:
You have been duped by your own partisanship. The reason the treasury shows debt going up is because it is money the govt. owes trust funds.
Here's a post that explains your mistake. Don''t feel bad it is easy to believe what you MUST to keep your fantasy alive. It's a bitch to live in a dream world. Don't you at least find yourself wondering why you have to get all your info from right wing blogs?

Read more: Surplus Myth exposed again (generations, economic, national debt, money) - Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Third Parties, Left-Wing, Right-Wing, Congress, President - Page 2 - City-Data Forum

So tell me the money that the Treasury owes the trust fund isn't an obligation in your world and thus not a debt? Try that in your personal finances taking money from your tax account, accrue the expense, and then not be able to pay the bill. Of course you cannot print money.

For some reason you want to believe Bill Clinton had surplus yet the debt grew each year. How is that possible. Talk about being duped by an ideology. Let's assume that you are right, Bill Clinton had a surplus, do you think he signed budgets that were greater or less than he proposed? Do you think he shut down the govt. because the GOP Congress gave him more than he requested?

Do you understand that the debt is created by deficits? If there is no deficit there is no debt. If there is a surplus the debt is reduced. Please show me where the debt was reduced to the U.S. Taxpayers? No matter how many times you post this bs it doesn't make it true nor is it relevant to the mess Obama has created. I know this is hard for you to accept because you have so much emotional capital invested in your failed ideology but Bill Clinton was a master politician. I guess the recession he left us with and of course 9/11 which happened had nothing to do with the increase in the debt. Those obviously were GW Bush's fault just like the economic numbers today are still Bush's fault? Do you or any other liberal accept any responsibility for personal or ideological failures?

vesper · Oct 4, 2013

How Bill Clinton's Balanced Budget Destroyed The Economy - Business Insider

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

ItAin'tFree said:
This chart claims a "surplus" of 236.2B. Once again, the CBO followed the instructions from the Dems to produce some number they wanted produced. But where's the money? They show some number's representing money but where did that money go if it was a "surplus"? As a taxpayer, I didn't get a rebate. As a taxpayer, my taxes were not reduced by my share of this phony "surplus". The federal debt kept right on increasing those years and that would be impossible if there was a "surplus".

Once again, show me this "surplus". Where is that money?

Yes. I want to see it too.

Iguanaman...

Maybe this will help:

OMB: Table 7.1—Federal Debt at the End of Year: 1940–2018 :

Year Debt in $millions
1977 706,398
1978 776,602
1979 829,467
1980 909,041
1981 994,828
1982 1,137,315
1983 1,371,660
1984 1,564,586
1985 1,817,423
1986 2,120,501
1987 2,345,956
1988 2,601,104
1989 2,867,800
1990 3,206,290
1991 3,598,178
1992 4,001,787
1993 4,351,044
1994 4,643,307
1995 4,920,586
1996 5,181,465
1997 5,369,206
1998 5,478,189
1999 5,605,523
2000 5,628,700
2001 5,769,881
2002 6,198,401
2003 6,760,014
2004 7,354,657
2005 7,905,300
2006 8,451,350
2007 8,950,744
2008 9,986,082
2009 11,875,851
2010 13,528,807
2011 14,764,222
2012 16,050,921

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

calamity said:
Because that was the fist one to pop up.

Here's a current one...as if it matters.

Notice how the recession was much deeper than the one in 2001, but seems to be following along the same change-rate path.

Oh so now we are comparing the 07-09 recession to the 2001 recession? You win, no question about it, the 07-09 recession was worse but that isn't what I stated nor was I comparing. You happy now, you won, 07-09 recession worse than the 2001 recession. Of course there was no 9/11 in 07-09 to add to the debt but that is irrelevant in your world.

You see, nothing you post proves that Obama has provided any leadership in this economy nor can you. There is a reason the recovery was better in 81-82 and that reason is leadership. Recessions are prolonged without leadership and this current President is an example of someone lacking leadership skills.

Conservative · Oct 4, 2013

Lord of Planar said:
Yes. I want to see it too.

Iguanaman...

Maybe this will help:

OMB: Table 7.1—Federal Debt at the End of Year: 1940–2018 :

Year Debt in $millions
1977 706,398
1978 776,602
1979 829,467
1980 909,041
1981 994,828
1982 1,137,315
1983 1,371,660
1984 1,564,586
1985 1,817,423
1986 2,120,501
1987 2,345,956
1988 2,601,104
1989 2,867,800
1990 3,206,290
1991 3,598,178
1992 4,001,787
1993 4,351,044
1994 4,643,307
1995 4,920,586
1996 5,181,465
1997 5,369,206
1998 5,478,189
1999 5,605,523
2000 5,628,700
2001 5,769,881
2002 6,198,401
2003 6,760,014
2004 7,354,657
2005 7,905,300
2006 8,451,350
2007 8,950,744
2008 9,986,082
2009 11,875,851
2010 13,528,807
2011 14,764,222
2012 16,050,921

Now there you go again confusing liberal with data and facts, now wonder how the CBO can post data like this and claim there was a surplus? hmmm, fuzzy math?

Kushinator · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
For some reason you want to believe Bill Clinton had surplus yet the debt grew each year. How is that possible.

Expenditures < Revenue

The level of the debt is of no consequence.

Kushinator · Oct 4, 2013

Conservative said:
Now there you go again confusing liberal with data and facts, now wonder how the CBO can post data like this and claim there was a surplus? hmmm, fuzzy math?

It requires a most basic understanding of finance.

Lord of Planar · Oct 4, 2013

Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176]

calamity said:
Because that was the fist one to pop up.

Here's a current one...as if it matters.

Notice how the recession was much deeper than the one in 2001, but seems to be following along the same change-rate path.

That one is still almost a year old. We are now 70 months into this current recession. That '81 recession was only 26 months and half as deep.

Why do you liberals thing such intellectual misinformation wins any points with anyone?

Also, how do you blame the '81 recession on Reagan when:

1) He had a democrat congress.

2) The recession started very shortly after he took office. This was on Carter's last budget that this happened in.

3) The '07 recession happened after democrats had budget control.

CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176:468]

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