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Thread: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame [W:176:468]

  1. #31
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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Delaying the ACA implementation seems like the rational decision here considering that it doesn't appear even 100% ready to implement at the moment. I don't know how the administration can argue that a delay of the individual mandate is unreasonable after they already bent the law by delaying the business mandate.

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    Re: CNN Poll: GOP would bear the brunt of shutdown blame

    Quote Originally Posted by greengirl77 View Post
    Actually, given how poorly and fragmented the messaging has been from Republicans...the part I did not see coming was that Republican Responsability alone has gone down by 5 points over the past month and blame for Obama alone has gone up by 3 points.

    That surprises me, as I feel like the Republicans haven't done a great job of getting their end of the messaging across.

    Frankly, I've been and continue to be on the "All of the above" category, adding the Senate into hte mix as well.

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Why not? a delay? what's wrong with that?
    Obama has delayed huge portions of the bill already, why not the rest?

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Obamacare will reduce the deficit. I thought Conservatives wanted deficit reduction. Now you want to delay reducing the deficit?
    CBO: Repealing Obama healthcare law will increase budget deficit - The Hill's Floor Action


    There's currently no valid reason to delay it. At least no reason that can be supported by facts.
    2 things need to be said regarding the CBO's projected deficit reduction...

    1) from the Hill article, what they said was that the CBO basis for their projection was " ... that eliminating the law's expensive coverage provisions would be more than offset by repealing its taxes, fees and Medicare cuts, resulting in a deficit increase."
    2) for the LIV, that means any decrease in deficit would be attributable to the huge increase in a bunch of taxes, new taxes, new fees, etc. ... not reduction of expenses.

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The compromise the right is proposing is to get rid of Obamacare, that isn't a compromise for the Dems. The GOP is wanting the Dems to cut their signature bill. It would be the equivalent of the Dems going, you need to cut the military by 75%. It just isn't going to happen that way and that's why it is looked at the right not compromising.
    I think the "compromise" he's speaking of is actually the 1 year delay of certian provisions of the ACA (notably, a number of the provisions that the Obama Administration was attempting to give exemptions to various labor unions for).

    So essentially he's suggesting the starting position of the Senate was Defund ACA + fund government. The senate said unequivocably "no". So they've "Compromised" to "Delay ACA + fund Government". And the senate seemingly is saying unequivocably "no" again.

    Whether or not you see it as a compromise is up for debate, but I imagine he's meaning the latter instance as a compromise more so than the first.

    And if I'm right in terms of that being the "compromise" he spoke of, then your analogy falls through a bit imho since asking the Dem's to delay implimentation across the board, when they were seeking to delay that implimentation to CERTAIN parties, is far more reasonable than 3/4ths of the military being cut

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I think the "compromise" he's speaking of is actually the 1 year delay of certian provisions of the ACA (notably, a number of the provisions that the Obama Administration was attempting to give exemptions to various labor unions for).

    So essentially he's suggesting the starting position of the Senate was Defund ACA + fund government. The senate said unequivocably "no". So they've "Compromised" to "Delay ACA + fund Government". And the senate seemingly is saying unequivocably "no" again.

    Whether or not you see it as a compromise is up for debate, but I imagine he's meaning the latter instance as a compromise more so than the first.

    And if I'm right in terms of that being the "compromise" he spoke of, then your analogy falls through a bit imho since asking the Dem's to delay implimentation across the board, when they were seeking to delay that implimentation to CERTAIN parties, is far more reasonable than 3/4ths of the military being cut

    Like x1,000,000

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Would you negotiate with someone that's asking for you to give them your arm and they'll give you a handshake? Of course not. What Republicans are asking for is not reasonable.
    That's really not a reasonable analogy in the least, unless you have such little disdain for the workforce of the federal government.

    Trying to step back as best I can from my own biases, I'd say a better analogy would be...

    One side said "Let us amputate your leg, and we'll give you food and water to live for the next year". The other side said no.

    So that first side says "Fine, you already were planning to walk a lot less. Let us break your leg and we'll give you food and water to live for the next year". The other side said "no".

    Now, its entirely reasonable to still go "Well that's still a ridiculous offer and of course they should say 'no'". But it's far more in line with reality, both in terms of what's being offered and what's being asked for, then comparing an amputation to a hand shake.

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Single term limits would only rob Congress of institutional knowledge and insure collective ignorance. The way to cure the ills of the system is to get rid of gerrymandered districts where the vast majority of representatives really have no general election and the other voters from the opposite party have no power to influence anything.
    We need to get rid of institutional knowledge. If govt is so complex that it requires lifelong appointments and massive bureaucracies to just remember how it even works, then its become to big. Govt power needs to be concentrated from the bottom up.

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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    If the bill is so good, why are there thousands upon thousands of waivers ignoring its requirements? Why did businesses get a year reprieve from their requirements, but individuals did not?

    In the end, precedence has been set, and whomever is in the Oval Office can by decree waive implementation.
    Which is the end game of the far right and has been from the start. All you want to do is delay and delay and delay until the day when you can kill it. Period.

    So the idea that lets just have this very reasonable one year delay is a bunch of disingenuous BS.
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    Re: Most would blame Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    We need to get rid of institutional knowledge. If govt is so complex that it requires lifelong appointments and massive bureaucracies to just remember how it even works, then its become to big. Govt power needs to be concentrated from the bottom up.
    I work in the Michigan legislature. We have term limits restricting Reps to no more than six years and Senators to no more than eight. The sad reality is that it takes a full two year term before most even figure out where things are and how the place runs and how to actually do their job. And those are the smart ones who learn fast. Some never quite get it. In the second term is where people begin to see how legislation is actually passed and how deals are made to get things done. In the third term, they begin to realize that there is much of State Government outside of their particular house that impacts things and they begin to learn how that works also.

    Another sad reality is every single person in the legislature knows that they will be long gone and completely unaccountable for most of what they have passed since they will no longer be there when things hit the fan. A good example is two years ago when the legislature drastically reduced almost 2 billion dollars of business taxes and increased personal taxes. The hope was it would stimulate business growth and create jobs and revenues. Two years later it still has not happened and we constantly hear that "thing take time". None of these guys will be here when the accounts come due and the final report card is in to pay the price for a stupid ideological error or to take credit for a great bill - whichever it turns out to be.

    What is the "bottom up"? Who is the bottom?

    In other words, just when the actually begin to function as a full legislator - in the third term - they are rendered as useless by the term limit law denying the voters who they want to represent them.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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