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Thread: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The rise of the Ayatollah's was a direct response to the 1953 coup. It couldn't possibly be a louder response to the West's constant redefining of the word "democracy". The regimes which tend to come after Western meddling always end up keeping the whole "authoritarian" part of our definition for "democracy". That said, I'm just wondering which "democracy" it is you want: the democracy they had under the Shah or the one they had under Mosaddegh?
    In a 26 year period, a lot of things could have happened so I disagree with the "direct response" comment. I really don't care to have Iran be a democracy, in fact, I don't care much about Iran at all. Who should care is the people who live there. If they want mullah's they get them. If they want totalitarian dictators they can have them. What's certain is, in many ME countries, democracy doesn't mesh well with fragile religious zealotry of varying types which rely on violence. Frankly, in the U.S. best interest is a benevolent dictator which can be manipulated such as the Shah. But as with so many things, a promising outcome cannot always be engineered or in some cases bought.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    In a 26 year period, a lot of things could have happened so I disagree with the "direct response" comment.
    It's an extremely short period historically.

    I really don't care to have Iran be a democracy, in fact, I don't care much about Iran at all. Who should care is the people who live there. If they want mullah's they get them. If they want totalitarian dictators they can have them. What's certain is, in many ME countries, democracy doesn't mesh well with fragile religious zealotry of varying types which rely on violence. Frankly, in the U.S. best interest is a benevolent dictator which can be manipulated such as the Shah. But as with so many things, a promising outcome cannot always be engineered or in some cases bought.
    I'm sure most Iranians don't want a totalitarian dictatorship. However, as that is what was given to them by Western governments (England, US) that is the form of ruling they have adopted in order to defend their collective interests. As far as a "benevolent" dictatorship being what is best for the US, given their reaction in the 70s to the Shah, and subsequent stance towards the US for the last 30 years, I'm not sure how logical that is.
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    I'd say that he didn't actually admit that there was a Holocaust. I watched it, and preceded by your quotation was something to the effect of "Well, I'm not a historian so I can't comment on the facts of history." Does that sound like someone that believes there was a systematic extermination of Jews occurring in Nazi Germany? No. He views this as just a crime like murder, and that Arab populations shouldn't have to give up land just because a couple Jews were killed in WW2.

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You're looking way too hard to find diversity in totalitarian dictatorship. Of course the Poobah puts on a theatre for his people and the international community.

    But let's stay on specific topic for the moment...


    Do you think this constitutes admitting the holocaust:

    Do you admit the holocaust?
    No answer.
    A bit later... Do you admit the holocaust?
    Any criminality is bad.


    That's holocaust denial.
    It's rhetoric, eco. Rouhani and Al Khamenei do not actually believe that the holocaust never happened (I can't speak for Ahmadinejad - that guy had some screws loose). They use rhetoric as a political tool. So far, it's been to defiantly piss the US and Israel off.

    Clearly, there has been a tempering of that rhetoric. This is consistent with other indicators that suggest Iran is interested in working with the West on some sort of agreement. Do I think Iran is going to abandon their plans to achieve nuclear capability? Absolutely not. But they may be willing to strike some sort of deal regarding Syria or in slowing their nuclear progress in exchange for some economic relief.

    And I don't agree that Al Khamenei can so easily remove Rouhani. I'm with Sherman. I know you remember Ahmadinejad's reelection. Al Khamenei is not going to risk poking the tiger, especially amidst the wake of the Arab Spring.

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    It's rhetoric, eco. Rouhani and Al Khamenei do not actually believe that the holocaust never happened (I can't speak for Ahmadinejad - that guy had some screws loose). They use rhetoric as a political tool. So far, it's been to defiantly piss the US and Israel off.
    Too simple. If they used such rhetoric just to troll the US and Israel, we need not be concerned. But that's not really why they do it. They do it to propagate CT and terrorism against Israel, in an attempt to delegitimize the state. They use their state press to make holocaust denial a fact of history to their populace. To fail to grasp this is to fail to comprehend the Iranian regime.

    To deny the intent of the regime's holocaust denial is disgusting and bordering on antisemitic. It's not just to troll, it's to destroy the state of Israel.


    Clearly, there has been a tempering of that rhetoric. This is consistent with other indicators that suggest Iran is interested in working with the West on some sort of agreement. Do I think Iran is going to abandon their plans to achieve nuclear capability? Absolutely not. But they may be willing to strike some sort of deal regarding Syria or in slowing their nuclear progress in exchange for some economic relief.
    Of course they will take a deal that slows their progress for economic relief. As long as they are moving towards nukes, they're happy. As we approach their deadline, I'm sure many distracting concessions will be presented. It means nothing.


    And I don't agree that Al Khamenei can so easily remove Rouhani. I'm with Sherman. I know you remember Ahmadinejad's reelection. Al Khamenei is not going to risk poking the tiger, especially amidst the wake of the Arab Spring.
    The regime could invent charges and, through totalitarian state media, make them stick. They could then remove him from office on the invented charges and their populace would have no idea the real reason for removal. Let's also remember that the only reason this president exists is due to the regime's nomination. Make no mistake, he is their guy and will say what they tell him to.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-26-13 at 07:59 AM.

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Let's see if he kisses any babies.
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It's an extremely short period historically.



    I'm sure most Iranians don't want a totalitarian dictatorship. However, as that is what was given to them by Western governments (England, US) that is the form of ruling they have adopted in order to defend their collective interests. As far as a "benevolent" dictatorship being what is best for the US, given their reaction in the 70s to the Shah, and subsequent stance towards the US for the last 30 years, I'm not sure how logical that is.
    Bingo, we need to stay out of that region and stop trying to control other governments through direct military/covert means. Not once has our interference worked since the end of WWII.
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynaeve Meara View Post
    Bingo, we need to stay out of that region and stop trying to control other governments through direct military/covert means. Not once has our interference worked since the end of WWII.
    I wouldn't say it hasn't worked. We have had some successes. Most of Europe seems to be doing way better than they did right afte WWII. So our interference has worked. What hasn't worked is a well thought out, non-ethnocentric approach. We think that people want every part of our modernity. In reality, some are alright with simply buying the same gadgets and clothes as us. Others are okay with borrowing parts of our culture like our slang. However, rarely do they want to become like us in every way.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Too simple. If they used such rhetoric just to troll the US and Israel, we need not be concerned. But that's not really why they do it. They do it to propagate CT and terrorism against Israel, in an attempt to delegitimize the state. They use their state press to make holocaust denial a fact of history to their populace. To fail to grasp this is to fail to comprehend the Iranian regime.

    To deny the intent of the regime's holocaust denial is disgusting and bordering on antisemitic. It's not just to troll, it's to destroy the state of Israel.
    Oh don't be so dramatic. I'm glad you concede that it's merely a political tool. If it's a tool they're using to destroy Israel, why are you so unhappy about this tempering of said tool? Would you rather they hasten the destruction of Israel instead? Why that's disgusting and bordering on anti-semitic, eco.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Of course they will take a deal that slows their progress for economic relief. As long as they are moving towards nukes, they're happy. As we approach their deadline, I'm sure many distracting concessions will be presented. It means nothing.
    Of course they'll take a deal that slows their nuclear progress? Earlier you said this was just another stall tactic. It cannot be both. That doesn't make sense strategically. Think about it. The aim of the regime's stall tactics is to allow Iran to achieve nuclear capability BEFORE a strike from the West. Deliberately slowing their nuclear progress is completely counterproductive to that aim. It's one or the other, not both.

    And why aren't you interested in slowing Iran's nuclear progress? That would be a good thing. Or what if this could be used to pressure Assad into a deal to end the bloodshed in Syria? ****ting on the talks before they've even begun would just be stupid, plain and simple. Your anti-Iran sentiment, however justified, is clouding your judgement on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The regime could invent charges and, through totalitarian state media, make them stick. They could then remove him from office on the invented charges and their populace would have no idea the real reason for removal. Let's also remember that the only reason this president exists is due to the regime's nomination. Make no mistake, he is their guy and will say what they tell him to.
    The populace is not so stupid. The regime attempted these kind of petty lies during Ahmadinejad's reelection, and the masses weren't fooled a bit. Why would they be fooled now?

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I wouldn't say it hasn't worked. We have had some successes. Most of Europe seems to be doing way better than they did right afte WWII. So our interference has worked. What hasn't worked is a well thought out, non-ethnocentric approach. We think that people want every part of our modernity. In reality, some are alright with simply buying the same gadgets and clothes as us. Others are okay with borrowing parts of our culture like our slang. However, rarely do they want to become like us in every way.
    Only reason Europe is doing better after WWII is thanks to our manufacturing that didn't get destroyed in the war. We have failed with every country we have intervened in; with regards to the middle east.
    "I can't abide women who poke their noses into other people's business."
    “Men are strange. I think it has something to do with the hair on their chins.”

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