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Thread: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

  1. #11
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    They nominate him, he runs for office. He holds no real power. The Grand Poobah can remove him at any time for any reason. He's a mouthpiece and spewing, at the moment, whatever will buy the regime time to develop nukes.

    What more is there to know?
    Obviously the President is subordinate to the clerical establishment and the Grand Ayatollah, but it would be a step too far to pretend that the President holds no power. Distasteful as Ahmadinejad was he very obviously engaged in power struggles with the clerical establishment and it's associated levers of power. Quite evidently he did not succeed but that the fight even occurred is an indication that the President has more than just ceremonial power. He is given a writ of power which can in theory be revoked and constrained but not without some difficulty and in the meanwhile he does in fact have practical control over most of the Islamic Republics day to day policy decisions. So what I meant was that we know so little about Rouhani and I think it is very unclear what kind of relationship he has with the Ayatollah or the clerical establishment. Has he been given broad latitude by them? Are they on good or bad terms? How afraid are they of muzzling or dethroning another elected President given the conditions inside Iran and the powder keg of the last crackdown? Etc, etc.

  2. #12
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spriggs05 View Post
    Its still a step better than Ahmadinejad.
    No, it's a step carefully calculated to buy time for developing nukes. Same old BS.

    There is no difference between the old president and the new one. Do you understand that the Iranian regime is a totalitarian theocracy and the president has no real power whatsoever?

  3. #13
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Obviously the President is subordinate to the clerical establishment and the Grand Ayatollah, but it would be a step too far to pretend that the President holds no power. Distasteful as Ahmadinejad was he very obviously engaged in power struggles with the clerical establishment and it's associated levers of power.
    That was theatre and Adinnerjacket could have been removed from power, for any reason, whenever the Poobah wanted.

    Has he been given broad latitude by them? Are they on good or bad terms? How afraid are they of muzzling or dethroning another elected President given the conditions inside Iran and the powder keg of the last crackdown? Etc, etc.
    He has been told exactly what to say in order to buy time. Let's be real - if he wasn't willing to do that, he would never have been allowed to 'run' for office.

  4. #14
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, it's a step carefully calculated to buy time for developing nukes. Same old BS.

    There is no difference between the old president and the new one. Do you understand that the Iranian regime is a totalitarian theocracy and the president has no real power whatsoever?
    I see your point, agree, and have no reply to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Freedom cannot be brought by foreigners with a gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The idiots on this board that fully take the republican or democrat side and think their party is the harbingers of truth and justice and the other, evil scum who are ruining the country. When you realize they're both the latter, you have reached enlightenment.

  5. #15
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spriggs05 View Post
    I see your point, agree, and have no reply to it.
    You're joking, right?

    I've been on internet debate sites for years and I've really no idea how to handle this.

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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You're joking, right?

    I've been on internet debate sites for years and I've really no idea how to handle this.
    Nope, your right, I concede that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Freedom cannot be brought by foreigners with a gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The idiots on this board that fully take the republican or democrat side and think their party is the harbingers of truth and justice and the other, evil scum who are ruining the country. When you realize they're both the latter, you have reached enlightenment.

  7. #17
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    That was theatre and Adinnerjacket could have been removed from power, for any reason, whenever the Poobah wanted.



    He has been told exactly what to say in order to buy time.
    I do not think that is true. Even in autocracies camps of power emerge, especially at the highest levels of government and politics. Especially earlier in his administration when he had firmer backing from the clerical establishment he went to great lengths to cultivate a relationship with the IRGC and conservative clerics which was a clear effort to build an independent power base. This directly contributed to the eventual crackdown from the senior political establishment against him which felt threatened by this apparent accumulation of power. There was an under-current from late 2010 to the end of 2011 that Ahmadinejad was in open conflict with Khamanei and a wing of the traditional conservatives in Parliament (whom Ahmadinejad has never had a good relationship). The dilemma over the Presidency in Iran which creates an automatic figure of power by popular elevation has constrained how aggressive the clerical establishment can be in reigning in the executive. If the Islamic Republic is going to continue the partial fiction of being a democracy which it's people are fiercely protective over it cannot be seen as acting in too heavy handed of a manner until popular sentiment has turned against the President (as it did in 2011).

  8. #18
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spriggs05 View Post
    Nope, your right, I concede that.
    I must say, your conclusion is more impressive than mine. Anyone could have come up with my logic and reasoning, but you... well, aren't you unusual.

  9. #19
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I do not think that is true. Even in autocracies camps of power emerge, especially at the highest levels of government and politics. Especially earlier in his administration when he had firmer backing from the clerical establishment he went to great lengths to cultivate a relationship with the IRGC and conservative clerics which was a clear effort to build an independent power base. This directly contributed to the eventual crackdown from the senior political establishment against him which felt threatened by this apparent accumulation of power. There was an under-current from late 2010 to the end of 2011 that Ahmadinejad was in open conflict with Khamanei and a wing of the traditional conservatives in Parliament (whom Ahmadinejad has never had a good relationship). The dilemma over the Presidency in Iran which creates an automatic figure of power by popular elevation has constrained how aggressive the clerical establishment can be in reigning in the executive. If the Islamic Republic is going to continue the partial fiction of being a democracy which it's people are fiercely protective over it cannot be seen as acting in too heavy handed of a manner until popular sentiment has turned against the President (as it did in 2011).
    You're looking way too hard to find diversity in totalitarian dictatorship. Of course the Poobah puts on a theatre for his people and the international community.

    But let's stay on specific topic for the moment...


    Do you think this constitutes admitting the holocaust:

    Do you admit the holocaust?
    No answer.
    A bit later... Do you admit the holocaust?
    Any criminality is bad.


    That's holocaust denial.

  10. #20
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    Re: Iran's new president: Yes, the Holocaust happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I must say, your conclusion is more impressive than mine. Anyone could have come up with my logic and reasoning, but you... well, aren't you unusual.
    No, I just know when I'm beaten. I don't carry on like a mindless lunatic who just spams a thread with a lack of logic and opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Freedom cannot be brought by foreigners with a gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The idiots on this board that fully take the republican or democrat side and think their party is the harbingers of truth and justice and the other, evil scum who are ruining the country. When you realize they're both the latter, you have reached enlightenment.

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