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Thread: One man's ObamaCare nightmare[W:51]

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's all strawman j.
    Just saying it doesn't make it so Joe...It is up to you to point out what you think is a straw man argument.

    The fact is we are a nation of laws, and we have processes in place. You'd be on the other side of the issue if this was a republican in office. The congress is behaving childishly and are merely trying to circumvent a law already debated and passed.
    Isn't the Constitution a law?

    That's what makes Stewart's commentary resonate.
    Nah, what makes you like Stewart, is that you agree with the liberal bias contained within his commentary, and agree with it. That is flawed thinking to believe that everyone thinks like you do...But, in the end, I think that some of these things will be enshrined in law, never to be overturned, less the people that try die the death of the third rail of touching an entitlement, until the country just goes broke, and we become a third world ****hole...Congratulations, you will have had a hand in defending that outcome.

    It would be a lot like the Giants demanding 25 more points of they'll shut down the NFL.
    This isn't a game Joe...Bad analogy.

    Congress needs to move forward, like adults, following the law.
    Agreed. The house is doing that exactly the way they are supposed to, and the demo's are throwing a temper tantrum and blocking the adults.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Just saying it doesn't make it so Joe...It is up to you to point out what you think is a straw man argument.



    Isn't the Constitution a law?



    Nah, what makes you like Stewart, is that you agree with the liberal bias contained within his commentary, and agree with it. That is flawed thinking to believe that everyone thinks like you do...But, in the end, I think that some of these things will be enshrined in law, never to be overturned, less the people that try die the death of the third rail of touching an entitlement, until the country just goes broke, and we become a third world ****hole...Congratulations, you will have had a hand in defending that outcome.



    This isn't a game Joe...Bad analogy.



    Agreed. The house is doing that exactly the way they are supposed to, and the demo's are throwing a temper tantrum and blocking the adults.
    Yes the Constitution is law, and by that document, law has been written, passed, and held up in court. Didn't you get the memo?

    And, it's an apt analogy. Your side lost. By vote, by the Constitution, by rule of law, your side lost. Now republicans are throwing a temper tantrum.

    And no. The house is behaving like children. They will regret that. I've told you such things in the past and been right each time. Instead of being wrong again, you might give advice some consideration.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes the Constitution is law, and by that document, law has been written, passed, and held up in court. Didn't you get the memo?
    And I am sure that when the time comes that Republicans have the house, senate, and Presidency, that you have no problem when those majorities lock out democrats in their decision to not only repeal this law, but move on agenda's they want and ram them through, right?

    Is this what we have come to? Each side just ruling instead of leading, and do you think that is what the principles that founded this country were set up to do?

    And, it's an apt analogy. Your side lost.
    The problem here is that you are viewing this through a sectarian sense, and not really caring about what the country wants, just your team...

    By vote, by the Constitution, by rule of law, your side lost. Now republicans are throwing a temper tantrum.
    Really? Because I would say that the American people lost in this...That means you too.

    And no. The house is behaving like children.
    Is they?

    They will regret that.
    That is how progressive demo's see things, through the politics of pain when their opponents don't just lay down and let them run rough shot....

    I've told you such things in the past and been right each time. Instead of being wrong again, you might give advice some consideration.
    You think arrogance like this is actually helpful for reasonable discourse in a discussion? Sounds childish to me. :
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And I am sure that when the time comes that Republicans have the house, senate, and Presidency, that you have no problem when those majorities lock out democrats in their decision to not only repeal this law, but move on agenda's they want and ram them through, right?

    Is this what we have come to? Each side just ruling instead of leading, and do you think that is what the principles that founded this country were set up to do?



    The problem here is that you are viewing this through a sectarian sense, and not really caring about what the country wants, just your team...



    Really? Because I would say that the American people lost in this...That means you too.



    Is they?



    That is how progressive demo's see things, through the politics of pain when their opponents don't just lay down and let them run rough shot....



    You think arrogance like this is actually helpful for reasonable discourse in a discussion? Sounds childish to me. :
    J, don't you remember when they had it all? They did exactly the same thing.

    And the country wants 90% of the law. Your sides misinformation effort makes it seem otherwise. Actually read those polls.

    As for arrogance, while what I said was accurate, do keep a little sense if humor. If you do, you won't be so upset all the time.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J, don't you remember when they had it all? They did exactly the same thing.
    Oh, so you justify bad acts to excuse, because "the other side did it first" eh? Hmmmm....Sounds childish.

    And the country wants 90% of the law. Your sides misinformation effort makes it seem otherwise. Actually read those polls.
    Hell, "the country" doesn't know half of what is in the law, nor do they understand it, or what's in the 20,000 pages of new regulations that so far have been whipped up by the institutions like HHS since this laws passing.

    And although I agree with many of the polls, that they show people don't want this shut down, but that they also think that the law is deeply flawed, only goes further to highlight that with progressive liberal rule of government only leaves a path like that to do what the people want.

    As for arrogance, while what I said was accurate, do keep a little sense if humor. If you do, you won't be so upset all the time.
    There is nothing funny about mean spirited arrogance. It is only something that would be allowable in internet conversations...Actual interaction in public, would have you choosing your words much more carefully, if you actually wanted to discuss anything.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, so you justify bad acts to excuse, because "the other side did it first" eh? Hmmmm....Sounds childish.



    Hell, "the country" doesn't know half of what is in the law, nor do they understand it, or what's in the 20,000 pages of new regulations that so far have been whipped up by the institutions like HHS since this laws passing.

    And although I agree with many of the polls, that they show people don't want this shut down, but that they also think that the law is deeply flawed, only goes further to highlight that with progressive liberal rule of government only leaves a path like that to do what the people want.



    There is nothing funny about mean spirited arrogance. It is only something that would be allowable in internet conversations...Actual interaction in public, would have you choosing your words much more carefully, if you actually wanted to discuss anything.
    Not justify j, merely pointed out your hypocrisy. You jumped to the wrong place once again.

    You don't know the law, and yet you whine? Point is when asked about the parts in the law, they say yes, they support that. They often strongly support it. Again, read your own surveys.

    And I do nothing in a mean spirit. Mostly with but a giggle. Your off yet again j.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not justify j, merely pointed out your hypocrisy. You jumped to the wrong place once again.
    Whatever Joe...This isn't about me or you. It is about trying to correct this miscarriage of the process in making the law, and fixing that.

    You don't know the law, and yet you whine?
    Oh give me a break! The very legislators that rammed this through didn't know what they were passing. Need I play Connyers again?

    Point is when asked about the parts in the law, they say yes, they support that. They often strongly support it. Again, read your own surveys.
    mmmhmmm, yeah...Sadly, people like 'free stuff', and in our society they want to get it at the expense of others. That is what progressives like you see as a win, because it allows you to lock people into a vote for their free stuff. The modern day slavery. I hope you are proud.

    And I do nothing in a mean spirit. Mostly with but a giggle. Your off yet again j.
    Hard to giggle about the decline of America.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Whatever Joe...This isn't about me or you. It is about trying to correct this miscarriage of the process in making the law, and fixing that.



    Oh give me a break! The very legislators that rammed this through didn't know what they were passing. Need I play Connyers again?



    mmmhmmm, yeah...Sadly, people like 'free stuff', and in our society they want to get it at the expense of others. That is what progressives like you see as a win, because it allows you to lock people into a vote for their free stuff. The modern day slavery. I hope you are proud.



    Hard to giggle about the decline of America.
    J, it's not a miscarriage just because you or a group doesn't like it. Remember, most like the things in the law. Once you understand that, you will see the only thing unpopular is the mischaracterizing of the law. Stop misrepresebpnting it, and it might possibly become popular. And face it, that's what really scares your side. If it didn't, you wouldn't have to mischaracterize it.

    And stop with the silly, childish "people like free stuff" and "modern day slavery." If you can't make a valid argument, just say you really can't. No one is in slavery. No one.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare[W:51]

    The family said their 4 person family, 2 parents & 2 boys of unspecified age (2 college age boys? 2 10 yr old boys?), premium is going from $333 to almost $1,000 a month.

    As is common with these sorts of stories, the background facts are vague and impossible to verify. For one thing, where in the hell were they getting a "cadillac" plan, as they described it, for $333 a month for a family? I frankly don't believe that's possible on the open individual private ins. market.

    Either someone was subsidizing them (meaning paying part of their premium), or it was a horrible policy and not a cadillac plan, or they're lying, OR something has happened recently in their health situation, like cancer (but like I said, I've never heard of being able to insure an entire family for $333 with a decent insurance plan, no less a cadillac plan). Even under one of my employers, an employee had to pay $1,000 to cover a family (employee ins. was free).

    I have been checking private ins plans a bit for the last 2 years. I am single, not a tobacco user, no health concerns at all, over 50. Even I would have trouble finding a decent plan for $333 a month. In fact, when looking, I tried to keep the premium under $400, and in doing that, found that I would have to do a high deductible ($5,000), 20% to 30% coinsurance, and about $35 copay for dr visits. That's close to what I was getting from my last employer, so not bad. Out of pocket for year would be at least $10,000. Those were PPO plans. Still, not bad, compared to COBRA. I could get something decent for around $350 to $400 a month. So-called cadillac plans for me would run over $700 a month this year....same as last year.

    So WHERE did they find a "cadillac" plan for an entire FAMILY for $333 a month? The article doesn't say, so it's impossible to verify. Which says a lot about that article and the "facts." And so it is with the scare tactic stories being spread around.

    Also...the policy they have now? Isn't that under Obamacare, since Obamacare went into effect in 2010? It's just not the bronze, silver, platinum, standardized plans.

    Note: If the family's income is less than $100,000, I think they'll qualify for a subsidy on the sliding scale. I would advise mom and dad to look for jobs with benefits, including health coverage and pension or a 401k. They have a family to support! But even if they get health coverage benefits, they may well have to pay about $1,000 for family coverage. That's fairly normal, as far as I know, for a group policy.
    Last edited by JumpinJack; 10-04-13 at 11:32 PM.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J, it's not a miscarriage just because you or a group doesn't like it.
    No, you're right. It is a miscarriage when a super majority of one party crafts a bill behind closed doors, won't allow anyone from the minority party in to amend, pays off skiddish members of their own party to pass it, and then does a hurried vote at midnight on Christmas eve, to ram it through. That is not the way we do things no matter what you say.

    [QUOTE]Remember, most like the things in the law. Once you understand that, you will see the only thing unpopular is the mischaracterizing of the law. Stop misrepresebpnting it, and it might possibly become popular.[/QUOT

    So, what I read you saying here is, 'Most people like free stuff in the bill, and if the other side would just stop revealing the horrible things contained within the law then we could lull people to sleep so that they just accept it.'

    What people are not paying attention to is the taxation that is coming along with this turd...

    "Taxes that took effect in 2010:

    1. Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (Min$/immediate): $50,000 per hospital if they fail to meet new "community health assessment needs," "financial assistance," and "billing and collection" rules set by HHS. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,961-1,971.

    2. Codification of the “economic substance doctrine” (Tax hike of $4.5 billion). This provision allows the IRS to disallow completely-legal tax deductions and other legal tax-minimizing plans just because the IRS deems that the action lacks “substance” and is merely intended to reduce taxes owed. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 108-113.

    3. “Black liquor” tax hike (Tax hike of $23.6 billion). This is a tax increase on a type of bio-fuel. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 105.

    4. Tax on Innovator Drug Companies ($22.2 bil/Jan 2010): $2.3 billion annual tax on the industry imposed relative to share of sales made that year. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,971-1,980.

    5. Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike ($0.4 bil/Jan 2010): The special tax deduction in current law for Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies would only be allowed if 85 percent or more of premium revenues are spent on clinical services. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,004.

    6. Tax on Indoor Tanning Services ($2.7 billion/July 1, 2010): New 10 percent excise tax on Americans using indoor tanning salons. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,397-2,399.

    Taxes that took effect in 2011:

    7. Medicine Cabinet Tax ($5 bil/Jan 2011): Americans no longer able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or health reimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin). Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957-1,959.

    8. HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike ($1.4 bil/Jan 2011): Increases additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,959.

    Taxes that took effect in 2012:

    9. Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2 (Min$/Jan 2012): Preamble to taxing health benefits on individual tax returns. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957.

    Taxes that take effect in 2013:

    10. Surtax on Investment Income ($123 billion/Jan. 2013): Creation of a new, 3.8 percent surtax on investment income earned in households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single). This would result in the following top tax rates on investment income: Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 87-93.

    Capital Gains Dividends Other*
    2012 15% 15% 35%
    2013+ 23.8% 43.4% 43.4%
    *Other unearned income includes (for surtax purposes) gross income from interest, annuities, royalties, net rents, and passive income in partnerships and Subchapter-S corporations. It does not include municipal bond interest or life insurance proceeds, since those do not add to gross income. It does not include active trade or business income, fair market value sales of ownership in pass-through entities, or distributions from retirement plans. The 3.8% surtax does not apply to non-resident aliens.

    11. Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax ($86.8 bil/Jan 2013): Current law and changes:

    First $200,000
    ($250,000 Married)
    Employer/Employee All Remaining Wages
    Employer/Employee
    Current Law 1.45%/1.45%
    2.9% self-employed 1.45%/1.45%
    2.9% self-employed
    Obamacare Tax Hike 1.45%/1.45%
    2.9% self-employed 1.45%/2.35%
    3.8% self-employed

    Bill: PPACA, Reconciliation Act; Page: 2000-2003; 87-93

    12. Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers ($20 bil/Jan 2013): Medical device manufacturers employ 360,000 people in 6000 plants across the country. This law imposes a new 2.3% excise tax. Exempts items retailing for <$100. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,980-1,986

    13. Raise "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI ($15.2 bil/Jan 2013): Currently, those facing high medical expenses are allowed a deduction for medical expenses to the extent that those expenses exceed 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI). The new provision imposes a threshold of 10 percent of AGI. Waived for 65+ taxpayers in 2013-2016 only. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,994-1,995

    14. Flexible Spending Account Cap – aka “Special Needs Kids Tax” ($13 bil/Jan 2013): Imposes cap on FSAs of $2500 (now unlimited). Indexed to inflation after 2013. There is one group of FSA owners for whom this new cap will be particularly cruel and onerous: parents of special needs children. There are thousands of families with special needs children in the United States, and many of them use FSAs to pay for special needs education. Tuition rates at one leading school that teaches special needs children in Washington, D.C. (National Child Research Center) can easily exceed $14,000 per year. Under tax rules, FSA dollars can be used to pay for this type of special needs education. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,388-2,389

    15. Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D ($4.5 bil/Jan 2013) Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,994

    16. $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives ($0.6 bil/Jan 2013). Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,995-2,000

    Taxes that take effect in 2014:

    17. Individual Mandate Excise Tax (Jan 2014): Starting in 2014, anyone not buying “qualifying” health insurance must pay an income surtax according to the higher of the following

    1 Adult 2 Adults 3+ Adults
    2014 1% AGI/$95 1% AGI/$190 1% AGI/$285
    2015 2% AGI/$325 2% AGI/$650 2% AGI/$975
    2016 + 2.5% AGI/$695 2.5% AGI/$1390 2.5% AGI/$2085
    Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS).Bill: PPACA; Page: 317-337

    18. Employer Mandate Tax (Jan 2014): If an employer does not offer health coverage, and at least one employee qualifies for a health tax credit, the employer must pay an additional non-deductible tax of $2000 for all full-time employees. Applies to all employers with 50 or more employees. If any employee actually receives coverage through the exchange, the penalty on the employer for that employee rises to $3000. If the employer requires a waiting period to enroll in coverage of 30-60 days, there is a $400 tax per employee ($600 if the period is 60 days or longer).Bill: PPACA; Page: 345-346

    Combined score of individual and employer mandate tax penalty: $65 billion/10 years

    19. Tax on Health Insurers ($60.1 bil/Jan 2014): Annual tax on the industry imposed relative to health insurance premiums collected that year. Phases in gradually until 2018. Fully-imposed on firms with $50 million in profits. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,986-1,993

    Taxes that take effect in 2018:

    20. Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans ($32 bil/Jan 2018): Starting in 2018, new 40 percent excise tax on “Cadillac” health insurance plans ($10,200 single/$27,500 family). Higher threshold ($11,500 single/$29,450 family) for early retirees and high-risk professions. CPI +1 percentage point indexed. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,941-1,956"

    20 Hidden Tax Hikes in Obamacare


    And stop with the silly, childish "people like free stuff" and "modern day slavery." If you can't make a valid argument, just say you really can't. No one is in slavery. No one.
    It is valid to call things what they are.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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