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Thread: One man's ObamaCare nightmare[W:51]

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    Taxpayers don't have to foot the bill for health care on anybody. To do so was decisions made by elected officials. ER's not being legally obligated to treat anybody that comes thru their doors with no intention to pay is an option. A good one I would add.
    Reagans administration put that one in the books. I'm split on the issue myself. I don't think its right to leave someone dying on the ERs front step because they can't prove they can pay. And yet, asking taxpayers to pick up the tab isn't right either. Nor is it right to ask the hospital to absorb the cost, because they just pass it on to patients who can pay via inflated charges for services rendered.
    Could It Be Semantics Generating This Mess We're In?

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    For passing it, no. For pretending it's radical liberalism, yes. Do pay attention.
    Socializing healthcare is liberalism. Never try to say it's something else. And don't try to pass it off as something all Republicans supported.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and assume this method of health coverage isn't new. And that fits into a larger problem that has caused a need for change. People, for whatever reason, are really really lazy when it comes to their own health care. People do not shop around for anything really or understand much of whats going on with their care, bills, coverage, and alternative options for all 3. Arguably, the government could have created an agency or program of some sort to hold peoples hands and walk them through the system down the path that lead to a good solid compromise between cost and coverage/care. No idea how much it would cost the nation, but it might have been ... more efficient than the ACA.

    The fact that you'll no longer be able to do things the way you have been does not mean you have no right to choose. You can still choose from a variety of coverage options and combinations, there's just minimums that have been set now, so you can't take certain risks in exchange for lower rates. Also, Healthcare reform resulted in the ACA. If republicans were able to accept the fact that the ACA isn't going to be repealed, they might be able to make some very good improvements on it, some much needed improvements. In debate, the Nirvana Fallacy is known and recognized. Republicans seem to be committing it with their total and complete rejection of all things ACA because it isn't perfect. But they spend all their time and effort finding those imperfections (and inventing them when needed) and pushing the nations face in them.

    Want to keep your plan? I'm sure it could happen under the ACA with some constructive debate and compromise. The ACA is here to stay but the details aren't written in stone. But republicans can't seem to allow anything with obamas name on it to stand, never mind participate in its successful reform and implementation. They've invested too heavily in its (and his) failure.
    Actually no. HSAs are specifically excluded in Obamacare because they are catastrophic only plans and all qualifying coverage has to provide for preventative care. What sucks about it is that these non qualifying plans will be discontinued, and since the savings account portion will no longer have a policy to back, the savings account will be taxed as regular income this year. Now, that may seem fair since the money that is in the account is pretaxed money, the problem with it is accumulation. So say he has been putting $10,000 a year in to it for 10 years. He didn't pay income tax on that $10K each year, but he is not going to be charged the equivalent income tax on it, he is going to pay the income tax on all $100K plus accrued interest this year which will put him into a higher tax bracket and the government will get a much bigger chunk of it. But that's OK with liberals because he is RICH and he deserves to have his stuff taken away. And when this new system falls apart he will no longer have that savings account, he will have to start all over. Also, health savings accounts are considered assets and can (could) be passed on to survivors, in effect making insurance needs and costs less for future generations. If Dad dies and leaves you a $100,000 health savings account you can afford to have a catastrophic plan with a very high deductible which would be much cheaper. Obamacare puts everybody in the investment pool forever, cradle to grave, at which point inheritance tax takes the rest of what you have spent your life earning. Who was it that recently said that we all "belong to the government"? Was that Hillary or Pelosi? It's so hard to keep up with all the stupidity...

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    Actually no. HSAs are specifically excluded in Obamacare because they are catastrophic only plans and all qualifying coverage has to provide for preventative care. What sucks about it is that these non qualifying plans will be discontinued, and since the savings account portion will no longer have a policy to back, the savings account will be taxed as regular income this year. Now, that may seem fair since the money that is in the account is pretaxed money, the problem with it is accumulation. So say he has been putting $10,000 a year in to it for 10 years. He didn't pay income tax on that $10K each year, but he is not going to be charged the equivalent income tax on it, he is going to pay the income tax on all $100K plus accrued interest this year which will put him into a higher tax bracket and the government will get a much bigger chunk of it. But that's OK with liberals because he is RICH and he deserves to have his stuff taken away. And when this new system falls apart he will no longer have that savings account, he will have to start all over. Also, health savings accounts are considered assets and can (could) be passed on to survivors, in effect making insurance needs and costs less for future generations. If Dad dies and leaves you a $100,000 health savings account you can afford to have a catastrophic plan with a very high deductible which would be much cheaper. Obamacare puts everybody in the investment pool forever, cradle to grave, at which point inheritance tax takes the rest of what you have spent your life earning. Who was it that recently said that we all "belong to the government"? Was that Hillary or Pelosi? It's so hard to keep up with all the stupidity...
    My understanding is that HSAs were often used in conjunction with high deductible catastrophic plans, they are not the same thing. HSAs are for routine expenses, doctor co-pays, Rx, lab work, etc.

    I agree the tax situation on mr. 100k HSA isn't fair. I also think it isn't fair I have to claim my tax return from last year on this years taxes, effectively paying income tax on the same money twice. That's the way it works though, and the people who can make those changes don't care to because those problems don't really affect them.

    Lets be honest about inherited HSAs, 95% of them will be cashed in soon after being inherited. Its not some kind of continuum from generation to generation. Unless you propose some way to protect these from being cashed in, the point is moot. And obviously preventing people from cashing in their inherited assets is an unnecessary restriction on freedom so......

    My point was, and still is, that it's not impossible to preserve these things, to have them work the way you want them to within the ACA, if the people who represented you focused on things they can change instead of beating their head against the wall so they can show their bloody forehead to their constituents next time they're up for reelection.
    Could It Be Semantics Generating This Mess We're In?

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    My understanding is that HSAs were often used in conjunction with high deductible catastrophic plans, they are not the same thing. HSAs are for routine expenses, doctor co-pays, Rx, lab work, etc.

    I agree the tax situation on mr. 100k HSA isn't fair. I also think it isn't fair I have to claim my tax return from last year on this years taxes, effectively paying income tax on the same money twice. That's the way it works though, and the people who can make those changes don't care to because those problems don't really affect them.

    Lets be honest about inherited HSAs, 95% of them will be cashed in soon after being inherited. Its not some kind of continuum from generation to generation. Unless you propose some way to protect these from being cashed in, the point is moot. And obviously preventing people from cashing in their inherited assets is an unnecessary restriction on freedom so......

    My point was, and still is, that it's not impossible to preserve these things, to have them work the way you want them to within the ACA, if the people who represented you focused on things they can change instead of beating their head against the wall so they can show their bloody forehead to their constituents next time they're up for reelection.
    Right, the savings account is a part of the insurance plan and the insurance has to be in place in order for the account to exist. There is a rule concerning the time allowed to transfer insurance plans, say if you wanted to change companies, where the savings account remains protected but I don't recall how long that is. It's kind of like selling a real estate property and reinvesting the money in to another one or having to pay capital gains.

    As far as cashing in a health saving account, unless something has changed since I looked at them there is no cashing in. Money in the account can only be used for qualifying medical expenses. I suppose there would be a way to dissolve it in the case of inheritance, but assuming that people will do this is no reason to not allow passing the account on to survivors. If they want to cash it out let them pay the taxes.

    But I agree that it would not be impossible to preserve these things. In fact there are any number of ways to address problems within the health care field. Unfortunately it has been sold that there are only two options: The old system with it's problems or Obamacare. Even here on this forum people have stated (when presented with glaring problems with Obamacare) that, well, something needed to be done, and this is something. The assumption is that there is only one option, and it has to involve the federal government. Evidently the root of the problem is the education system, because there is a huge portion of the population that couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. It's sad really, that it only took a couple of generations of dumbing people down to have enough of them going thru life as drooling idiots who, BTW, see themselves as intellectually superior, are perfectly happy giving up any semblance of liberty for the comfort of slavery. Don't believe it? Ask 10 people you know what their credit card balances are. We have been programmed to believe that we can have, actually DESERVE, anything we want whether of not we can afford it, and living in perpetual debt is not only accepted but NORMAL. When I tell people I have no credit cards, mortgage, car payments, cell phone contracts or any other debt of any kind they look at me like I have two heads.

  6. #186
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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and assume this method of health coverage isn't new. And that fits into a larger problem that has caused a need for change.
    Wrong. This is a specious argument. The system works quite well. It really only came into its own in the last 15 years or so. What it results in is FAR less work for me and my family. Regular medical bills don't go through a third party insurer any more. I pay on the spot with a check card linked to my HSA. The doctors charge me less because they don't have to navigate the paperwork of the third party insurer and the money goes directly to their business within 24 hours rather than 3 months, simplifying the accounting.

    People, for whatever reason, are really really lazy when it comes to their own health care. People do not shop around for anything really or understand much of whats going on with their care, bills, coverage, and alternative options for all 3. Arguably, the government could have created an agency or program of some sort to hold peoples hands and walk them through the system down the path that lead to a good solid compromise between cost and coverage/care. No idea how much it would cost the nation, but it might have been ... more efficient than the ACA.
    BUT WHY IS THIS MY PROBLEM?! Why do you insist on making things LESS functional and MORE intrusive because people people don't know any better? Criminey, your theorized problem could have been solved far cheaper with a few PSAs.

    You make a system to cater to the idiots and what you end up with is an idiotic system.

    This is what we face with the ACA.


    The fact that you'll no longer be able to do things the way you have been does not mean you have no right to choose.

    This is a very silly argument. Limiting my choice is limiting my choice. Just because I am left with a few far inferior choices doesn't make up for the fact that I can't choose what I actually want.


    You can still choose from a variety of coverage options and combinations, there's just minimums that have been set now, so you can't take certain risks in exchange for lower rates.
    I. DON'T. WANT. THOSE. PLANS. How the hell else can I explain this to you? I had a choice of what I want, now I don't. You aren't going to be able to spin that into no loss of choice.

    You like walking out of your house and not having your wallet stolen.... I put Guido and Furio on your porch to take your wallet from you when you leave your house. By your argument I have not really infringed on your rights because you can still walk out of your house.

    Also, Healthcare reform resulted in the ACA. If republicans were able to accept the fact that the ACA isn't going to be repealed, they might be able to make some very good improvements on it, some much needed improvements. In debate, the Nirvana Fallacy is known and recognized. Republicans seem to be committing it with their total and complete rejection of all things ACA because it isn't perfect. But they spend all their time and effort finding those imperfections (and inventing them when needed) and pushing the nations face in them.
    They offered several alternative bills during the process of writing the ACA and none of them were incorporated. They have offered since then several bills to change ACA to a more open system that doesn't eliminate Catastrophic plans for people over 30, and allows for the kinds of HSAs that existed before the ACA and get no traction.

    Face it, the Democrats passed a sh*t bill that you now challenge the Republicans to fix, and fault them for not fixing it. The problem is that IT WAS A SH*T BILL and shouldn't have been passed in the first place. Putting the onus on Republicans to clean up the Democrats bowel movement is absurd.


    Want to keep your plan? I'm sure it could happen under the ACA with some constructive debate and compromise. The ACA is here to stay but the details aren't written in stone. But republicans can't seem to allow anything with obamas name on it to stand, never mind participate in its successful reform and implementation. They've invested too heavily in its (and his) failure.
    No, because what I and many many others want is effectively the abolishment of all of the onerous regulations and fees that the ACA dumped on us and our families. I choose what is good for me and my family, but that isn't the choice necessarily for another person. Essentially what I want is the granular freedom for everyone to do what they believe is best for them and theirs, and all of us, in different ways, are denied that. We need a more granular system, now a menu with four equally sh*tty options.

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator
    You make a system to cater to the idiots and what you end up with is an idiotic system.
    Brilliant. Absolutely true, and brilliant.

  8. #188
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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    As far as cashing in a health saving account, unless something has changed since I looked at them there is no cashing in. Money in the account can only be used for qualifying medical expenses. I suppose there would be a way to dissolve it in the case of inheritance, but assuming that people will do this is no reason to not allow passing the account on to survivors. If they want to cash it out let them pay the taxes.
    Fair enough, the tax penalties would be huge anyway, something like 20-40%

    But I agree that it would not be impossible to preserve these things. In fact there are any number of ways to address problems within the health care field. Unfortunately it has been sold that there are only two options: The old system with it's problems or Obamacare. Even here on this forum people have stated (when presented with glaring problems with Obamacare) that, well, something needed to be done, and this is something. The assumption is that there is only one option, and it has to involve the federal government. Evidently the root of the problem is the education system, because there is a huge portion of the population that couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. It's sad really, that it only took a couple of generations of dumbing people down to have enough of them going thru life as drooling idiots who, BTW, see themselves as intellectually superior, are perfectly happy giving up any semblance of liberty for the comfort of slavery. Don't believe it? Ask 10 people you know what their credit card balances are. We have been programmed to believe that we can have, actually DESERVE, anything we want whether of not we can afford it, and living in perpetual debt is not only accepted but NORMAL. When I tell people I have no credit cards, mortgage, car payments, cell phone contracts or any other debt of any kind they look at me like I have two heads.
    Just to add 3 words to your statement in there, its been sold that there's only 2 options: the old system with it's problems or obamacare as it stands. I think obamacare is a much better place to start than the old system, but not where it should end as it stands. Unfortunately the right would rather pout in the schoolyard than try and contribute and balance the excesses of the left.
    Could It Be Semantics Generating This Mess We're In?

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare[W:51]

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Just one example on how Obama care will screw you..........Biggest Ponzi scheme in the history of this country.


    One man's ObamaCare nightmare | Fox News
    Prior to Obamacare, the insurance companies could drop you if you have a pre-existing condition,
    AFTER taking your premiums and co-payments. Now THATS a ponzi scheme!!
    Ya, let's go back to that!

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    Re: One man's ObamaCare nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    Fair enough, the tax penalties would be huge anyway, something like 20-40%



    Just to add 3 words to your statement in there, its been sold that there's only 2 options: the old system with it's problems or obamacare as it stands. I think obamacare is a much better place to start than the old system, but not where it should end as it stands. Unfortunately the right would rather pout in the schoolyard than try and contribute and balance the excesses of the left.
    It would be easier to fix the old system than it would be to fix the almost 3000 page Obamacare cluster****. I don't want to fry to fix an over convoluted law, I want to throw it out and start over, and from a direction that does not have the government running the health care system.

    Did you read what Jmotivator said about paying his doctor directly with his savings account? The doctor charged him less because he did not have to deal with a third party and he got paid faster. The other side of that is that the costs go down because people who are paying for their own health care will price shop. When people have insurance all they care about is the deductible.

    Also, you may have noticed there is some deep division on the "right" over this. There are the traditional Republicans who have become establishment limp dicks, and there are a handful of younger conservatives (like Cruz) who are not willing to accept it. Democrats will want to group them all together because that is what they do, but I see two distinct groups here and I side with the conservatives, not the Republicans. I think it's about time we recognized the difference. We conservatives are on the right, establishment Republicans are centrists by action and comparison.

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