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Thread: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah, no. While agreeably liberals are a sizeable minority, conservatives have a significantly larger margin than 0.1%.
    50.1 was not an actual proportion. The actual numbers vary, and show either side having a majority. And sometimes (often, actually) neither side. The only consistent trends are that officers are more conservative than enlisted, and veterans are more liberal than current military members.
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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Veteran suicide rates alone do not necessarily tell us that VA care has failed. Maybe other details (such as observing that there are veterans seeking help and not getting it) demonstrate a failure, but we can't just notice a high suicide rate and then go on auto-blame mode against someone for not somehow preventing those suicides.

    I think there is a mix of both here, i.e. some instances of VA care being deficient and people committing suicide while on long wait lists for help, but also I think that even with the most utopian scenario of a comprehensive array of instantaneously available world-class mental health care... we'd still see high suicide rates among veterans.

    So my opinion is that yes we should be alert for possible shortcomings of VA care and think critically about how to beef it up if needed, as well as to be more vocal (both liberals and conservatives) about non-defensive military interventions in oil-rich nations.

    But I also think we should be cautious not to be idiots about tossing around blame for people killing themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. he was responding to those who argued that it was in fact "the hawks" who could be blamed.

    2. Both of his claims, however you want to adjust for his intent, are nonetheless accurate. For those whose suicide is driven by combat, the distinction between what we teach them to expect and what they then have to go through is a contributing factor. Agreeably it's nowhere as bad as it was for Vietnam, especially with the "return" factor, where there is at least public support until they find out the specifics, as opposed to public abuse.

    3. Military suicide rates are, in fact, an overblown "crises". Our suicide rate is lower than the civilian rates among the same population. While taking care of our people and saving them when necessary remains critical, this issue is the result of a zero-defect mindset, not an actual "epidemic".


    Before anyone loses their mind over that, my first team leader in the Marine Corps killed himself, as did a former platoon sergeant from my company and a Marine who had been under me. I've dealt with the issue. But we're not f****** victims.
    I'm absolutely shocked. Two on this forum with libertarian and conservative next to their name making a rational argument. You both spoke in complete sentences using proper grammar and punctuation. You made well reasoned arguments using logic and one even had a link to a website that supports their assertions and appears credible.

    I think hell is about to freeze over.

    C's and Libers of this forum... pay attention to what just happened here. If you all argued in this manner you might advance your cause.

  3. #63
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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    50.1 was not an actual proportion. The actual numbers vary, and show either side having a majority. And sometimes (often, actually) neither side. The only consistent trends are that officers are more conservative than enlisted, and veterans are more liberal than current military members.
    You are right on veterans over current military members - which only demonstrates that, like most Americans, military members become more conservative as they age and grow wiser.

    I've seen the breakdown between conservative, liberal, and moderate that show a plurality for self-identified "moderates", with conservatives a stronger minority than liberals. But take a look at the voting breakdowns. It's nowhere close. The military is more conservative than the general populace.

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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are right on veterans over current military members - which only demonstrates that, like most Americans, military members become more conservative as they age and grow wiser.
    How exactly did you get that fresh soldiers are more right wing, and then when they're finished with the military, they're more left wing, into "older means more conservative"? When they sign up, they believe the right wing slogans. When the live it, they learn reality.

    And how does that square with retired seniors being more liberal? Frankly, it just seems like Baby Boomers are conservative, while everybody else is pretty liberal. The same people who went bananas for Reaganomics and screwed everything up are the same ones who went bananas for Bush's wars and tax cuts and screwed everything up even more.

    I know you want vindication really badly, but you won't find it here.
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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    How exactly did you get that fresh soldiers are more right wing, and then when they're finished with the military, they're more left wing, into "older means more conservative"? When they sign up, they believe the right wing slogans. When the live it, they learn reality.
    People become more conservative as they age; so do members of the military. If you think that military service has a liberalizing effect, then you are going to have a hard time explaining why those who have served the longest (senior officers and SNCOs) are more conservative than first-termers.

    And how does that square with retired seniors being more liberal?
    what in the world makes you think that retired seniors are more liberal? Seniors are more conservative - and are simply also very risk-averse when it comes to their entitlement programs. But the liberal/conservative divide is hardly confined within the narrow issue of Social Security.

    Frankly, it just seems like Baby Boomers are conservative, while everybody else is pretty liberal. The same people who went bananas for Reaganomics and screwed everything up are the same ones who went bananas for Bush's wars and tax cuts and screwed everything up even more.

    I know you want vindication really badly, but you won't find it here.
    I'm don't need vindication from the boomers of all people. Nor do I need it from veterans - veterans are people, too; there are cowards, liberals, conservatives, heroes, morally strong and morally weak among us. Being a veteran doesn't make one smarter or dumber. We can debate the economic reforms that gave us a massive economic boom, pulled us out of double-digit inflation, and helped collapse the Soviet Union elsewhere, if you like, but the boomers, by and large, are more liberal than either their parents or (and this is interesting) their children.

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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Then why not be specific instead of resorting to vagaries? If you think there's some element contributing to these suicides, let's examine it. Otherwise, you're just making an empty and exceedingly partisan accusation.
    Try reading all the posts in the thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    As opposed to the bills put forth by Republicans without these attachments? Or the staunch stance by Republicans not to add attachments in the first place? Oh wait, none of those happened. Every bill has absurd riders on them. That's how it works. It sucks, but that's how it works. The fact is, bills were offered, Republicans shot them down, no Republican bills came up to replace them and address the problems. One side is trying, one side is not. That's all there is to it.
    I was discussing and pointing out those particular bill you linked, not bills in general. What I said applied to them and possible reasons for why non-liberals didn't support them, like the GoP. One wasn't even really killed by the GoP, but because of procedural errors, i.e., the senate tried to initiate a spending bill which can only be originated in the house.
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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cat View Post
    This literally makes me want to cry, anybody who says the VA hasn't failed these men & woman is completely delusional. The government can't manage this, how can then be expected manage the entirety of the American people........
    The VA would be failing if they weren't trying to help veterans with these issues. The fact is that they are, and they're trying to get veterans to seek help for combat related issues. The problem is veterans not going to the VA, and not being honest in their evaluations for one reason or another. There are even "veterans centers" where nothing you say will be recorded or documented to aid in the trust issues that many veterans have, but veterans have to walk through those doors and seek help.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    We do not wage pointless wars. Only the govt. does.
    The government represents the people, if the people don't like it, the people can stop it. If the people don't stop it, they support it.
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    Re: Why suicide rates among veterans may be more than 22 a day

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The government represents the people
    The govt. does not represent the people. PROOF: the majority disagree with most of what the govt. does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    , if the people don't like it, the people can stop it.
    They can't, not without $ or the means to extort pols. If they could, they would've certainly done so by now.

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