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Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gays

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davidtaylorjr said:
Absolute fact. Somewhere between 10-15 thousand years ago it is estimated. As high as 25,000 years ago by some estimates.
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So tell me, we're all a product of incest then?

Adam and Eve had children. Then, how did those children re-produce if not for incest?
 
Dragonfly said:
So tell me, we're all a product of incest then?

Adam and Eve had children. Then, how did those children re-produce if not for incest?
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Incest was not banned until later, obviously we would have to have brothers and sisters married first in order to populate the earth.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
100% Yes. Is that a problem for you?
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Nope.
No more a problem than children believing in Santa Claus.
No more a problem than Hindu's believing in Ganesh.
No more a problem than people believing in reincarnation.

You are free to believe whatever you wish.
 
Dragonfly said:
Nope.
No more a problem than children believing in Santa Claus.
No more a problem than Hindu's believing in Ganesh.
No more a problem than people believing in reincarnation.

You are free to believe whatever you wish.
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The difference is, my belief is fact.
 
Dragonfly said:
Funny.

And wrong.

As is obvious with your own words. You used "belief". Not me.

I don't believe in facts. I know facts.

Your arrogance is duly noted though.
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You indeed were talking about beliefs and what I believe. I know what I believe is a fact. Does that make you feel better.... :roll:
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Dodge? And what exactly did I dodge?
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davidtaylorjr said:
The difference is, my belief is fact.
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davidtaylorjr said:
100% Yes. Is that a problem for you?
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davidtaylorjr said:
Absolute fact. Somewhere between 10-15 thousand years ago it is estimated. As high as 25,000 years ago by some estimates.
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You spelled it out quite clearly and never once said anything about it being "your personal belief" until you were called on it.

You were asked numerous questions, and you even stated in a previous post that the Bible is an authentic, historical reference of FACT.
 
Dragonfly said:
You spelled it out quite clearly and never once said anything about it being "your personal belief" until you were called on it.

You were asked numerous questions, and you even stated in a previous post that the Bible is an authentic, historical reference of FACT.
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What a stupid argument and stupid logic. Is it your personal belief that the Revolutionary war occurred? Yes? Mine too, but guess what, it is also a FACT!
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Absolutely.
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Then, you obviously have no understanding of what "historically documented" entails. For example, I can write that unicorns rode the earth on a piece of paper. If that piece of paper is found 1,000 years later, that doesn't make what I wrote a historically documented account of any sort. The standards for that are a lot higher than you think.

Secretary's Standards--Historical Documentation

Secretary of the Interior's Standards for Historical Documentation

Historic documentation provides important information related to the significance of a property for use by historians, researchers, preservationists, architects, and historical archeologists. Research is used early in planning to gather information needed to identify and evaluate properties. (These activities are discussed in the Standards and Guidelines for Preservation Planning and the Standards and Guidelines for Identification.) Historical documentation is also a treatment that can be applied in several ways to properties previously evaluated as significant; it may be used in conjunction with other treatment activities (as the basis for rehabilitation plans or interpretive programs, for example) or as a final treatment to preserve information in cases of threatened property destruction. These Standards concern the use of research and documentation as a treatment.

Standard I. Historical Documentation Follows a Research Design that Responds to Needs Identified in the Planning Process

Historical documentation is undertaken to make a detailed record of the significance of a property for research and interpretive purposes and for conservation of information in cases of threatened property destruction. Documentation must have defined objectives so that proposed work may be assessed to determine whether the resulting documentation will meet needs identified in the planning process. The research design or statement of objectives is a formal statement of how the needs identified in the plan are to be addressed in a specific documentation project. This is the framework that guides the selection of methods and evaluation of results, and specifies the relationship of the historical documentation efforts to other proposed treatment activities.

Standard II. Historical Documentation Employs an Appropriate Methodology to Obtain the Information Required by The Research Design

Methods and techniques of historical research should be chosen to obtain needed information in the most efficient way. Techniques should be carefully selected and the sources should be recorded so that other researchers can verify or locate information discovered during the research.

Standard III. The Results of Historical Documentation Are Assessed Against the Research Design and Integrated into the Planning Process

Documentation is one product of research; information gathered about the usefulness of the research design itself is another. The research results are assessed against the research design to determine how well they meet the objectives of the research. The results are integrated into the body of current knowledge and reviewed for their implications for the planning process. The research design is reviewed to determine how future research designs might be modified based on the activity conducted.

Standard IV. The Results of Historical Documentation Are Reported and Made Available to the Public

Research results must be accessible to prospective users. Results should be communicated to the professional community and the public in reports summarizing the documentation activity and identifying the repository of additional detailed information. The goal of disseminating information must be balanced, however, with the need to protect sensitive information whose disclosure might result in damage to properties.
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The Bible doesn't meet a single one of those standards satisfactorily. So how Genesis be "historically documented"? It isn't.
 
Hatuey said:
Then, you obviously have no understanding of what "historically documented" entails. For example, I can write that unicorns rode the earth on a piece of paper. If that piece of paper is found 1,000 years later, that doesn't make what I wrote a historically documented account of any sort. The standards for that are a lot higher than you think.

Secretary's Standards--Historical Documentation



The Bible doesn't meet a single one of those standards satisfactorily. So how Genesis be "historically documented"? It isn't.
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There are those in the secular world who disagree. For example.

"...wherever detailed correspondence of biblical accounts and archeological facts can be established, then it usually turned out that the Bible is an accurate description of what went on."

Clube, Victor & Napier, Bill - THE COSMIC SERPENT, (NY: Universe Books, 1982) p. 247

They are not speaking of 'supernatural' events but good old fashioned research.

Clube:

Astronomer
Former Dean of the Astrophysics Department of Oxford University

Napier:
Currently an honorary professor of Astrobiology at Cardiff University.
 
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hfd said:
There are those in the secular world who disagree. For example.

"...wherever detailed correspondence of biblical accounts and archeological facts can be established, then it usually turned out that the Bible is an accurate description of what went on."

Clube, Victor & Napier, Bill - THE COSMIC SERPENT, (NY: Universe Books, 1982) p. 247
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The Cosmic Serpent? Seriously?

The Cosmic Serpent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Investigating the connections between shamanism and molecular biology, Narby hypothesizes that shamans may be able to access information at the molecular level through the ingestion of entheogens, specifically ayahuasca.[1] Biophysicist Jacques Dubochet criticized Narby for not testing his hypothesis.[1] Narby and three molecular biologists revisited the Peruvian Amazon to try to test the hypothesis, and their work is featured in the documentary film, Night of the Liana.[2]
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You're citing a book about mysticism nonsense as a "secular" opinion on what the standards for what HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED means? Please stop. You're not going to convince anybody with your complete head dive into the validity of LSD laced opinions on a conservation about academics.

They are not speaking of 'supernatural' events but good old fashioned research.

Astronomer
Oxford University's Department of Astrophysics
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Lol, I got a laugh out of the last part. Is that what you're supposed to be? The best part is that you're confusing a historical document with historically documented. The Bible is a historical document. So are the Qur'an and Torah. That does NOT make the accounts in them to be "historically documented".
 
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davidtaylorjr said:
What a stupid argument and stupid logic. Is it your personal belief that the Revolutionary war occurred? Yes? Mine too, but guess what, it is also a FACT!
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Are you serious?

I don't believe the Revolutionary War occurred. I know it. It is a fact. No debate.

I know the sun rose today. I believe it will rise tomorrow.

There is no FACT that Adam and Eve existed. That is NOT a fact in any way, shape, or form.

Your belief in Adam and Eve is no different than a child's belief in Santa Claus.

A belief is not a fact.

I don't believe Pearl Harbor happened. I don't believe that airplanes flew into the World Trade Center on 9/11.
I know those to be facts.

My dog sleeping next to me is a fact.

Your belief in some god in heaven does not make god or heaven a fact.

If you can't differentiate between fact and belief there's no sense having any sort of debate about any of this.

So what is truly stupid and illogical is using phrases like "absolute fact" multiple times about things that are obviously little more than mythological in nature.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
The difference is, my belief is fact.
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Your dishonest way of conflating the mysteries of Christianity with "fact" destroys the Christian witness. This is why authentic Christians need to ex communicate the fundies from the church. Like Paul said, don't even eat with these people.
 
I have to agree with you. I think Luther was right in challenging a lot of things the church was doing, getting rich by selling indulgences, etc., but they can go further.

I heard if the catholic church tried to cash out all their assets, there isn't enough money in circulation to pay them for it. That is insane.


DiAnna said:
I'm liking the direction Pope Francis is taking. Perhaps eventually he'll wrest some of the church's immense wealth away from the greedy hierarchy and return it to the people themselves, especially those living in poverty. Makes me sick to see popes, bishops, etc., draped in silk, velvet, gold and jewels while millions of devout Catholics around the world cannot even feed themselves.
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I don't think he said otherwise. He is saying he won't personally judge or condemn.

And I don't think God cares what church you follow, or who is your religious leader. What matters is if you following the teachings of Jesus as a Christian.


I heard about a Christian preacher through my cousin. It's her church. Anyway, he was in the hospital in South Africa, praying for people with HIV, and some guy was dying, and said, "he probably doesn't want to pray with me because I am homosexual and was infected by gay sex."

Somebody told the preacher that that was his attitude, and he went up to him and said, "I love you in the name of the father in heaven and his son Jesus. Let us pray together for you."

I probably have quotes off some, but that was mostly how it went. I was probably 13 when I heard that, always remembered it because of how unusual it seemed. I haven't heard anything like that since.

But that is a message of love and compassion, and that is powerful. The pope portrays it also. Especially when he washed the feet of the poor and people in jail.


digsbe said:
Some days I'm glad I'm not Catholic. It's absolutely important for Christians to be involved and vote on their beliefs. Regardless of what the Pope says, the Bible is God's word and if he begins suggesting that homosexual sex isn't sinful then he is nothing more than a false prophet that the Bible warns us about.
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But christianity is especially hard on homosexuality, all things considered. Sex before marriage, masturbation, adultery, and many things are not even attacked or rarely condemned now, nowhere near the way homosexuality is treated by Christians.

digsbe said:
That's why I said "if he begins." Far too many have fallen prey to the word and its thinking and have compromised truth to appease evil.
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This really made me lol. What are you talking about.


WCH said:
I tell you what, the Homosexual community HAS interfered with my personal life in several ways. Thanks to the homo indoctrination my oldest received in public school, I almost lost a daughter over their crap.

GO BACK TO THE CLOSET MOFOS!
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Lol. The Roman emperors were accepting christianity towards the end of the empire, but it did thrive as a polytheist empire many years before Christ.

WCH said:
You guys can make all the fun you want, this creeping evil will help break down the very fabric of our society.

Same sort of stuff brought down the Roman empire can bring us down as well.

"For the wages of sin is death"
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Isn't that what the mormons believe. God created Adam and Eve, married and baptized the on ths stop. In the garden of Eden, present day Mississippi.



davidtaylorjr said:
God created marriage.
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A lot of people don't take the story literally.


davidtaylorjr said:
Prove that God created marriage? Why does that need to be proven in a court? Adam and Eve were the first marriage, and guess who joined them together? God. Historically documented in Genesis.
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