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Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gays

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RabidAlpaca said:
There is however evidence to support those books. History books are written based on evidence gathered. If you can show me evidence that you created and patented marriage, I will become a believer and start hating gays right along with you.

And you didn't answer my question: If you own marriage, why can those from other faiths get married and not just christians? Are you just being gracious by allowing them to get married?
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You're not going to get much out of that. Christians believe that they invented marriage. Vaguely challenging them won't result in anything, because Christians generally don't look at history outside of the Bible and thus don't have enough thought to, e.g., examine Hammurabi's Code. In that case you'd have to point out to them that Hammurabi's Code was written in 1750 BC, and thus we have conclusive evidence that marriage predates monotheism (the idea of a single God) by ~1100 years, Christianity by ~ 1780 years and marriage as a Christian sacrament by ~2850 years. From that we conclude that marriage has never been a Judeo-Christian religious institution, and that Christianity simply cannot have a claim to an institution that predates even their God.

davidtaylorjr said:
Because marriage is one man and one woman. That's why.
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brothern said:
You're not going to get much out of that. Christians believe that they invented marriage. Vaguely challenging them won't result in anything, because Christians generally don't look at history outside of the Bible and thus don't have enough thought to, e.g., examine Hammurabi's Code. In that case you'd have to point out to them that Hammurabi's Code was written in 1750 BC, and thus we have conclusive evidence that marriage predates monotheism (the idea of a single God) by ~1100 years, Christianity by ~ 1780 years and marriage as a Christian sacrament by ~2850 years. From that we conclude that marriage has never been a Judeo-Christian religious institution, and that Christianity simply cannot have a claim to an institution that predates even their God.
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Adam and Eve man, Adam and Eve. Predates ALL other humans.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You're not going to get much out of that. Christians believe that they invented marriage. Vaguely challenging them won't result in anything, because Christians generally don't look at history outside of the Bible and thus don't have enough thought to, e.g., examine Hammurabi's Code. In that case you'd have to point out to them that Hammurabi's Code was written in 1750 BC, and thus we have conclusive evidence that marriage predates monotheism (the idea of a single God) by ~1100 years, Christianity by ~ 1780 years and marriage as a Christian sacrament by ~2850 years. From that we conclude that marriage has never been a Judeo-Christian religious institution, and that Christianity simply cannot have a claim to an institution that predates even their God.
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Adam and Eve man, Adam and Eve. Predates ALL other humans.
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... and the earliest Biblical sources still only reach back to ~950 BCE, which is still ~800 years younger than the mention of the lesbians and eunuchs in Hammurabi's Code. Fact is that marriage is not Christian and never has been. It predates recorded history.
 
brothern said:
... and the earliest Biblical sources still only reach back to ~950 BCE, which is still ~800 years younger than the mention of the lesbians and eunuchs in Hammurabi's Code. Fact is that marriage is not Christian and never has been. It predates recorded history.
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You should probably check your sources on that.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
then why does it share many of the same story's that Judaism has?

Why does christianity consider the city of juresalem their holy city, even though both Judasim and Islam have similar claims to the city.
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The NEW Jerusalem is the Holy city of Christianity. Also known as Zion, aka Heaven.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You should probably check your sources on that.
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I would turn that onto you. I know that archeology, carbon dating and recorded history confirms that the dating of the Bible restricts it to the first century millenia BCE. The First Babylonian Dynasty and its laws far predate anything remotely biblical given that the dynasty lasted from 1900 BCE to 1500 BCE. The Uruk period of Sumer streches back to 4100 - 2900 BC and foundation of ancient Egypt stretches back to 3150 BC. The creation of the Bible is closer to today than it was to the marriages existing in ancient Egypt and Sumer.

Sources of the Pentateuch: Texts, Introductions, Annotations - Google Books
 
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brothern said:
I would turn that onto you. I know that archeology, carbon dating and recorded history confirms that the dating of the Bible restricts it to the first century millenia BCE. The First Babylonian Dynasty and its laws far predate anything remotely biblical given that the dynasty lasted from 1900 BCE to 1500 BCE. The Uruk period of Sumer streches back to 4100 - 2900 BC and foundation of ancient Egypt stretches back to 3150 BC. The creation of the Bible is closer to today than it was to the marriages existing in ancient Egypt and Sumer.

Sources of the Pentateuch: Texts, Introductions, Annotations - Google Books
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Moses is estimated to have been born around 1391 BC, and Job is estimated to have been written before the books of the Law. Their history goes back to the creation of the world in Genesis, so don't really care what you are trying to argue, it isn't valid.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Moses is estimated to have been born around 1391 BC, and Job is estimated to have been written before the books of the Law. Their history goes back to the creation of the world in Genesis, so don't really care what you are trying to argue, it isn't valid.
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The only record of Moses that we have is the Bible. His existance is not confirmed by any other historical source, which is beside the point because after centuries of archeological research, there has not been a single shred of evidence that supports that Hebrews ever even existed in Egypt. The Exodus is not a historical account.

"The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible, and that the story is best seen as theology, a story illustrating how the God of Israel acted to save and strengthen his chosen people, and not as history."

Egypt: The Jews of Ancient Egypt
The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That largely misses the point, as well, because we actually know what was going on in Egypt in 1391 BCE. Egyptians recorded history and left archeological evidence, thus we have brilliant wikipedia pages full of information about Amenhotep III or Akhenaten, their reigns and what was occuring in Egypt at the time Moses was not existing.

Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Moses is estimated to have been born around 1391 BC, and Job is estimated to have been written before the books of the Law. Their history goes back to the creation of the world in Genesis, so don't really care what you are trying to argue, it isn't valid.
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Well to be precise their MYTHS and LEGENDS go back to the Creation of the world, which pretty much ALL societies do. 'History' requires a more concrete record other than camp fire stories past down for thousands of years before the written word.

Ever play the child's game of whispering a sentence into another's ear all the way around the circle to see what the final version is? do that for 5,000 years before the first written record and see what you get.

My thought is the Bible is a good book but not THE word of GAWD.

As far as who the Church should embrace or shun.... Seems I heard one of the closest people to Jesus was a female prostitute. I have also heard all manner of sinners are embraced by the Church. Those drunks and cheats, druggies and hookers, murderers and wife beaters- even politicians and IRS workers... :shock:

Why those who don't want to sleep with the opposite sex are singled out for a special admonition over those who break the Holy vows of marriage is something I don't quite understand...
 
shrubnose said:
That would be a new direction for the church.




"Man has created God in his own image: Intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent." ~ Marie
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Homosexual sex will always be a filthy sin. An abomination.

A Pope is never going to change that
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Adam and Eve man, Adam and Eve. Predates ALL other humans.
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So you take the story literal, even though Jesus seldom talked in parodies. Frankly, if you talk to the Catholic Church, they're not so literal. If there is any genetic component, then God most certainly made Adam and Steve, so to speak.
 
notquiteright said:
Well to be precise their MYTHS and LEGENDS go back to the Creation of the world, which pretty much ALL societies do. 'History' requires a more concrete record other than camp fire stories past down for thousands of years before the written word.

Ever play the child's game of whispering a sentence into another's ear all the way around the circle to see what the final version is? do that for 5,000 years before the first written record and see what you get.

My thought is the Bible is a good book but not THE word of GAWD.

As far as who the Church should embrace or shun.... Seems I heard one of the closest people to Jesus was a female prostitute. I have also heard all manner of sinners are embraced by the Church. Those drunks and cheats, druggies and hookers, murderers and wife beaters- even politicians and IRS workers... :shock:

Why those who don't want to sleep with the opposite sex are singled out for a special admonition over those who break the Holy vows of marriage is something I don't quite understand...
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Don't know who Gawd is, I agree the Bible is not the word of Gawd (whoever that is).
 
Boo Radley said:
So you take the story literal, even though Jesus seldom talked in parodies. Frankly, if you talk to the Catholic Church, they're not so literal. If there is any genetic component, then God most certainly made Adam and Steve, so to speak.
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Good thing I'm not catholic. That being said, Genesis is quite literal.
 
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