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House Bill Defunds Health Care

They have their constituents and are following their will.
The will of the people to shut down the government when there is a disagreement? Really? Would you like a shutdown every time there is a disagreement? This is a step towards a level of dysfunction that is seriously alarming. Our congress people need to do their job on time with minimal disruption. This is a highly destructive method of running a country.

A lot of people do not want Obama Care and they are playing to that crowd,
A lot of people want it and whether you like it or not the bill was passed. Holding the country hostage to appease a minority of the population is ridiculous and an excuse.

It is the majority of the citizens of the United States opinion.
To shut down the country? No. A majority view it unfavorably, yes.

However if you break down the bill and actually explain it to people they support it. This is due to the incredible amounts of propaganda that have branded Obamacare an evil that must be stopped. Just look at what people on this forum say. They act like a five mile wide meteor is headed to Earth and will wipe out civilization. Just like they did with electing Obama in 08, and 12, and with everything that happens that negatively effects the rich.

This is politics at its most basic. This is not a gentleman's club where they chastise a fellow for mildly offensive behavior. The leaders in the Republican Party sometimes well, often thinks it is.
Dysfunctional politics is not a good thing. There are real, negative consequences to this. No its not the end of the world but people lose jobs, miss paychecks, can't afford to pay bills. It is highly disruptive all for nothing.

We are not a Democracy. We are a Republic. And if we were a Democracy , Obama Care would not have passed and now since the public knows about Obama Care the majority would hold it not be funded and to be repealed.
Opinion.

Backing out of a Dead End street is not regression; It is correction. And the only negativity I see is from Democrats that refuse to accept that the general public is opposed to this form of health care.
Opinion.

Obama Care is a colossal fubar and this is essentially the last chance to stop it from wrecking this country.
Opinion.
 
Is a law a policy?

A law can reflect policy.

Since the Repubs have already stated their wish to kill Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security,
this would set a precedent NO President would allow.

Some want to reform them and others want a diffrent solution to them. I can just easily accuse Democrats want to keep Medicare/Medicaid since it sends money to fraudulent firms and providers who support them. And they do not want to reform Social Security since they hope that Social Security will not go bust until after they leave office. It is so easy to just accuse your opponents point of view as being disingenuous.

I now must call it a tie for first between Voting Wrongs Acts and Defunding Laws.

Government should guarntee the veracity of elections and should defund programs that are in ill repute.
 
Based on what? There is no reason a company would terminate its existing health care plans, and subject themselves to the fines (which are rather stiff) and move good people from full time to part-time. Its non-sense

The impact of ACA is on 50-200 employee companies that do not currently have healthcare for their employees. Only a few companies have to worry about this. I do, happen to have a company that falls in this area.

Interesting, what is your company gonna do?
 
The Republicans passed a bill with everything but Obama Care. It is up to the Democrats to pass it or not. They will be the ones causing a shut down. There is no reason that the bill have to include everything on its budget and those areaa that are agreed to can be passed to avoid this senerio in the first place.

Oh please. It is obstruction. I can't believe you guys are actually trying to float this.
 
The will of the people to shut down the government when there is a disagreement? Really? Would you like a shutdown every time there is a disagreement? This is a step towards a level of dysfunction that is seriously alarming. Our congress people need to do their job on time with minimal disruption. This is a highly destructive method of running a country.

It's also pretty ****ed up to pass unpopular laws banking on the fact that people love free things and will support it when those free things start rolling out. Who does that all the time? Oh right, democrats. The party that can't shut up about America being a democracy has a very bad habit of voting against the will of the people.


A lot of people want it and whether you like it or not the bill was passed. Holding the country hostage to appease a minority of the population is ridiculous and an excuse.

The majority of the country is against the law for one reason or another. Some want full repeal and others want changes, but the majority of the population is against the law.

To shut down the country? No. A majority view it unfavorably, yes.

Nope. 51% are for it. Not exactly sure why, but that is what is being reported anyway.

However if you break down the bill and actually explain it to people they support it. This is due to the incredible amounts of propaganda that have branded Obamacare an evil that must be stopped. Just look at what people on this forum say. They act like a five mile wide meteor is headed to Earth and will wipe out civilization. Just like they did with electing Obama in 08, and 12, and with everything that happens that negatively effects the rich.

I believe I have heard that before? Oh right, Obama said that.


Dysfunctional politics is not a good thing. There are real, negative consequences to this. No its not the end of the world but people lose jobs, miss paychecks, can't afford to pay bills. It is highly disruptive all for nothing.

Nothing? I think not.
 
Interesting, what is your company gonna do?

I have another year to worry about it. I expect, over the next year, through the ingenuity of American business, the insurance industry will develop products for companies such as mine. My business has always been substantially staffed with part-time workers. I already have healthcare for the full time staff.
 
IMHO it has little to do with logistics and everything to do with maximizing profits and conservative ideology of making sure nobody gets anything for "free".

Republicans are more interested in preserving the health care service than "maximizing profits" of it. And if Obama Care is not stopped then there will be great damage to the health care system.

Also there is no "free". Everything has a cost and someone must pay it. TANSTAAFL. If there ever were a law of the Universe this would be one.

Healthcare profits are absolutely fantastic for those on top so they will fight to the death to keep it that way.

The high costs of health care in part are to pay for those who were and are not able to pay for it. And since you want "free" health care this is the result. Imagine it ballooning.

Conservatives are already in a tizzy over people getting food for free, the prospect of them getting more or better healthcare has them even more outraged
.

Conservative are concerned that the Food Stamp Program and others are being abused. Or like WAC is causing harm to families and communities.

And with respect to health care there are better options than Obama Care which is meant to fail.
 
It's also pretty ****ed up to pass unpopular laws banking on the fact that people love free things and will support it when those free things start rolling out. Who does that all the time? Oh right, democrats. The party that can't shut up about America being a democracy has a very bad habit of voting against the will of the people.
Complaining about poor people getting healthcare for "free" does not please me. There is a myth in that word free. You see when people do menial low paying jobs they create a lot of value, value that goes up the chain and redistributes itself disproportionately to the upper echelon. If you look at the direction the country is going this imbalance is becoming larger and larger in the last four decades. If they have to give some money back in the form of making sure everyone has decent healthcare that is not an injustice, it is fairness. I do not care if some people get a free ride if it means another ten get what they deserve. The world is not perfect and this is next best thing to single payer for the poor.

The majority of the country is against the law for one reason or another. Some want full repeal and others want changes, but the majority of the population is against the law.
The majority of the country also once supported slavery. The amount of right-wing propaganda injected into the public makes them a poor candidate to judge anything. I hate to say it but most people are not fit to make these kinds of decisions. LoL, I know you guys will have a **** fit over what I just said.

Nope. 51% are for it. Not exactly sure why, but that is what is being reported anyway.
For shutting down the government?

I believe I have heard that before? Oh right, Obama said that.
I've seen it in numerous polls and he probably used it. This is part of the "not fit to make decisions for themselves" argument.

Nothing? I think not.
What will they get then?
 
They do. Of course, the interesting irony in this is substantially all of the funding of Obama care is in mandatory spending part of the budget. It is outside of the domain of congress, so this is an exercise in complete silliness.

WRONG. The House has the Power of the Purse. Budget bills start there and the only real mandatory spending per the Constitution would be maintaining a Navy.
Obama care was passed and signed into law in 2010. What is it about Regressives that makes them live in the past?

It was passed by members who did not have time to review what was in the bill. And was done on a partisan vote. There should be a long discussion about it before it would be allowed to go into effect. And I think that the law should be repealed.

Just a reality check for Cons. Eisenhower completed his two terms (and you would never elect him today, anyway, so whats the fascination?); Reagan is dead (and you would never elect him today, anyway, so whats the fascination?); and Obamacare is the law of the land. None of these things is going to change.

The ones who do not want to change are the Democrats they always want more tax money and more expansive expensive programs and to make the government bigger than before.
 
Complaining about poor people getting healthcare for "free" does not please me.

Ok?

There is a myth in that word free.

Of course, nothing is free. Don't tell the democrats though. They live in some weird world where they support higher taxes to pay for welfare and at the same time think welfare is free.

You see when people do menial low paying jobs they create a lot of value, value that goes up the chain and redistributes itself disproportionately to the upper echelon. If you look at the direction the country is going this imbalance is becoming larger and larger in the last four decades. If they have to give some money back in the form of making sure everyone has decent healthcare that is not an injustice, it is fairness.

Yes, providing people with healthcare against your will is justice. Perhaps if the world was upside down and all the blood rushed to my head that would make sense.

I do not care if some people get a free ride if it means another ten get what they deserve.

What makes you think they deserve anything?

The world is not perfect and this is next best thing to single payer for the poor.

No, this is a stepping stone to single payer. It's kind of the point of the law.

The majority of the country also once supported slavery. The amount of right-wing propaganda injected into the public makes them a poor candidate to judge anything. I hate to say it but most people are not fit to make these kinds of decisions. LoL, I know you guys will have a **** fit over what I just said.

No, I expected it. Many people sit around chanting democracy and when the people oppose them all of a sudden the people are stupid and the smart people know what is good for them.

For shutting down the government?

That is what I said.

I've seen it in numerous polls and he probably used it. This is part of the "not fit to make decisions for themselves" argument.

Yeah, Obama likes to think he is smarter than everyone else. Nothing new there.

What will they get then?

What they are after?
 
Republicans are more interested in preserving the health care service than "maximizing profits" of it. And if Obama Care is not stopped then there will be great damage to the health care system.

Also there is no "free". Everything has a cost and someone must pay it. TANSTAAFL. If there ever were a law of the Universe this would be one.
If you research the cause of high healthcare costs in the U.S. you will find a very simple answer, price gouging. Republicans might think they are "preserving" health care but that is conservative ideology. Old is the best, new is bad. If you look at history we are always advancing... what would happen if we never did anything new? We'd still be living in caves for fear of using tools. Read my response to Henrin about "free".

The high costs of health care in part are to pay for those who were and are not able to pay for it. And since you want "free" health care this is the result. Imagine it ballooning.
Those without adequate care are forced to go to the emergency room and also miss out on tremendous amounts of preventative care that could save much money and lives down the road. This is highly inefficient and a plus of Obamacare. We're already paying for it. The richest country in the world can afford for everyone to get standardized no questions asked healthcare.

Conservative are concerned that the Food Stamp Program and others are being abused. Or like WAC is causing harm to families and communities.
Who cares? Is somebody eating a sandwich they didn't pay for really the worst thing that could happen? Most people work, most people (especially the poor doing menial jobs) contribute much more to society that they receive in compensation. It is unfair for the poor to receive substandard healthcare. Just a FYI, did you know your "free" checking account at your local bank is paid for by aggressive overdraft fees that rob those with the least amount of money? The poor as a whole are not a drain on the society, quite the opposite.

And with respect to health care there are better options than Obama Care which is meant to fail.
Like our current system that is the most expensive in the world and provides care ranked 39th behind Cuba? The "free market" had its chance and it created a bad system. You can blame government intervention for it but we're at the point where we need a new direction and the government completely deregulating healthcare and walking away creating a libertarian utopia ain't gonna happen.
 
Yeah, hospitals can charge $10 for an aspirin. It's sick. So lets build on the law to make everything more transparent. Why would you have to repeal it to do that?

We won't but these are things that can be done instead of having a system that is going to be run by the most hated department in this country. When rationing occurs and it will occur there will be riots over this and that department will experience the Peoples wrath.

The ACA is bad law we need to look over options that do not require government taking over the health care system.
 
Ok?



Of course, nothing is free. Don't tell the democrats though. They live in some weird world where they support higher taxes to pay for welfare and at the same time think welfare is free.



Yes, providing people with healthcare against your will is justice. Perhaps if the world was upside down and all the blood rushed to my head that would make sense.



What makes you think they deserve anything?



No, this is a stepping stone to single payer. It's kind of the point of the law.



No, I expected it. Many people sit around chanting democracy and when the people oppose them all of a sudden the people are stupid and the smart people know what is good for them.



That is what I said.



Yeah, Obama likes to think he is smarter than everyone else. Nothing new there.



What they are after?

This is all standard libertarian "aint my problem **** everyone and everything, I wash my hands of any participation." This is of zero help. Its not like we live in a country where everything is squared up equal except for them darn poor people who do nothing and suck benefits. The whole system is somewhat corrupt yet for some reason you guys want to put the screws on the poor just as hard as you can as though it somehow fixes everything, what a crock of ****.
 
I gotta tell ya, a lot of money the hospitals make don't go to doctors, they go to bulls*** projects. I worked at an agency that was hired by a hospital to put a $2 million art installation in a new ward that itself would cost multiple millions. Everyone involved talked about how great it was, but it bothered me that so much money was going into what was essentially a luxury that nobody needed. Better that they save the people who needed the care the money they would have spent. In this sense, people like me that are supportive of Obamacare like it because it at least does something instead of just letting this perverse system go on unchanged.

This is why people who run hospitals should have a medical background. Also if I had my way the government would not fund people getting a business degree. We have too many people in charge of companies that have the "right" degree but have no sense when it comes to things like this. What would be worse is for them to spend money on some sort of faddish business enrichment programs that the employees have to adhere to.
 
This is all standard libertarian "aint my problem **** everyone and everything, I wash my hands of any participation." This is of zero help. Its not like we live in a country where everything is squared up equal except for them darn poor people who do nothing and suck benefits. The whole system is somewhat corrupt yet for some reason you guys want to put the screws on the poor just as hard as you can as though it somehow fixes everything, what a crock of ****.

Want to talk about corporate welfare? I'm down. Though the line gets a bit blurred when you realize that welfare for the poor is also corporate welfare.

What do poor people deserve anyway? Can you define exactly what they deserve?
 
No, I'm the one who noted the utter absurdity of the position we are currently in.

We are in this position since the Democratic leadership did not let anyone know the details of the bill until 3 days before the bill would have is final vote. The Democrat reps largely voted on the bill on the handshake and a smile of their party leaders. Some of them paid for voting for this turd and if they had been given more time read the bill I doubt it would have passed.
 
The Republicans passed a half-assed bill designed to shortchange what had already been passed. They are the ones responsible for a shutdown.

They passed all but the ACA funding aka Obama Care. There is no requirement to pass the budget as a whole in one bill. There should be no objection to the presented bill in the Senate.

You obviously support defunding it ... own the shutdown.

Again the rest of the budget has been passed and only Obama Care will not be funded (which is something the House can legitimately can do.) If the Senate refuses to vote for the bill that the House proposed then it is on the Senate and its controlling members that will have to bear the burden of blame for a closure.
 
Want to talk about corporate welfare? I'm down. Though the line gets a bit blurred when you realize that welfare for the poor is also corporate welfare.

What do poor people deserve anyway? Can you define exactly what they deserve?
The poor should get all the welfare they need until corporate welfare is largely ended and we live in a much fairer society where all work is justly rewarded. How it all functions is a large and complex mess and I don't have all the answers to what welfare goes where. What I do know is that two parents working "average" jobs in the U.S. barely make enough money to survive. Those that have trouble finding full time employment or suffer a health care crisis in the family are destroyed.

This is 2013, we have achieved much throughout history and many things are pretty easy these days. Is it really too much to ask that everyone get decent healthcare? Is this really so hard that we can't even try? What kind of civilization are we that we feel we need to chuck people off the boat for fear the whole ship is going to sink? These are not the actions of a confident superpower. This is what greedy businessmen do who are addicted to favorable bottom lines.

Who cares what people deserve, its more important what people need. All this fuss over making sure somebody doesn't get something they might not have fully paid for is a waste of time and resources. Most poor people work, most of them work hard, shouldn't that be enough?
 
We won't but these are things that can be done instead of having a system that is going to be run by the most hated department in this country. When rationing occurs and it will occur there will be riots over this and that department will experience the Peoples wrath.

The ACA is bad law we need to look over options that do not require government taking over the health care system.

Nobody wants this shady law that's going to create the largest database on every American in human history. Obama is even going to know what kind of toilet paper you use.

Defund this *&^%$
 
We are in this position since the Democratic leadership
I didn't even bother to read the rest of your post. Your trying to insert partisanship to argue a statement I made where I expressly said to ignore it. What I said was very accurate. I know you're just itching to stand up and blame people, but that was not the point of my comment.
 
The will of the people to shut down the government when there is a disagreement? Really?

Yes, really. If it comes to the point that it is the only way that this bill be stopped, so be it.


Would you like a shutdown every time there is a disagreement?

No only occasionally when the options have been exhausted and a bill must be stopped from being implemented.


This is a step towards a level of dysfunction that is seriously alarming.

At best your statement is hyperbole at worst it is a grave misunderstanding on the Checks and Balances one of which is the House has the Purse and it can choose not to fund a department if they so choose.
Our congress people need to do their job on time with minimal disruption

No, that only happens with dictatorships with a rubber stamp legislature and in countries that have one ruling party. It does not occur as often in countries with at least a relatively free elections that represent their constituents.

. This is a highly destructive method of running a country.

No this is what the Congress should do when their is great controversy on a bill or program. That it is happoinig is showing our government still works as was meant to after as fashion.
A lot of people want it and whether you like it or not the bill was passed.

A majority do not want to happen or this would not be happening.

Holding the country hostage to appease a minority of the population is ridiculous and an excuse.

It is not a minority and the country is not being held hostage. The Senate could vote for the bill passed and the President can sign it thus avoiding any "shutdown" of the government. We would just not have Obama Care implemented and we can wait til the next election where both chambers are Republican or we can have the bill repealed and start over this time with pleanty of discussion and not having no release of the bll just before the vote.

To shut down the country? No. A majority view it unfavorably, yes.

You are wrong. Sorry, but a majority does not want this implemented. They want a repeal. This would include people who want a national health policy. I'm sure that this country can improve the health care but it must be discussed and debated and not done as some backroom dealing that was done to get it passed.

However if you break down the bill and actually explain it to people they support it.

They might support some parts of Obama Care, but the parts they object to out way the benefits of the bill.
This is due to the incredible amounts of propaganda that have branded Obamacare an evil that must be stopped.

So you want to pass some sort of Sedition Act with respect to Obama Care. I hope you don't mean that.

Just look at what people on this forum say. They act like a five mile wide meteor is headed to Earth and will wipe out civilization.

Properly prepared we could survive a meteor strike. There is nothing that we can do to prepare the damage Obama Care will do to health care and the economy.
Just like they did with electing Obama in 08, and 12, and with everything that happens that negatively effects the rich.

A lot of the really rich are supporters of Obama Care. Since you are so down on the "rich" that should give you pause. The Republicans are somewhat concerned abut the merely wealthy instead. Paris Hilton is rich. Your average small to mid size business is merely wealthy and Obama Care will be a great burden to them one way or another. Republicans are more concerned what the negative effects would be on the average worker.

It is somewhat an irony that now Republicans are more the workers Party than the Democrats. Obama Care is a bad system for workers.


Dysfunctional politics is not a good thing.

Yes dysfunctional politics such as the current President far exceeding his authority and has made many more violations than his predecessors.

There are real, negative consequences to this.

The consequences are far greater if Obama Care is not stopped. And if you want the politics to be less dysfunctional then adhering closer to the Constitution would be a partial solution for that.

No its not the end of the world but people lose jobs, miss paychecks, can't afford to pay bills.

Which is already happening due to Obama Care.


It is highly disruptive all for nothing.

The nothing is what we will eventually get if Obama Care has a hold on our country.



We are a Republic not a Democracy. And my observation is more fact than opinion. The majority of Americans oppose implementing Obama Care. Given that if we were a true Democracy with a national vote over the issue then Obama Care would not just be delayed but repealed.



Changing or repealing Obama Care would be a correction which is a value neutral term for a change. You used a negative value term "regression" and thus you were giving opinion. And again the majority is against Obama Care that is not opinion.


You would have been better served hyperbole instead. Given what Obama Care is the worst is yet to happen if not stopped.
 
They passed all but the ACA funding aka Obama Care. There is no requirement to pass the budget as a whole in one bill. There should be no objection to the presented bill in the Senate.

Why not? The Senate doesn't serve as an automatic rubber stamp for the House.
 
Oh please. It is obstruction. I can't believe you guys are actually trying to float this.

Please do not group me with the Republicans. I support them on this issue. I have never been a Republican and I will never be one unless they fully embrace and promote strict adherence to the Constitution. And forebear using the government as vehicle to promote the "morality" of less than a great majority of the population. And I would want at least as their platform prohibitions against prosecuting property limit prohibitions on "illegal" drugs among others.
 
If you research the cause of high healthcare costs in the U.S. you will find a very simple answer, price gouging.

Price gouging is resolvable with transparency with billing. It should be law that all billed items be clear what they are and when provided. In some cases patients were billed for items and services they did not receive. And with respect to overpriced OTCs and other items that are provided I guess we may have to make a law limiting the overage on those things. Limiting it to 3 times the cost would make a large reduction overall.

Another cost is due to bureaucratic wrangling between the hospitals and providers and the insurance companies and government programs. A possible resolution would require arbitration if the two sides cannot come to an agreement in a reasonable amount of time.

Republicans might think they are "preserving" health care but that is conservative ideology.

If you say that Republicans are persisting in a "conservative" ideology, then it can be said that Democrats are persisting in a "progressive" ideology.

Old is the best, new is bad. If you look at history we are always advancing... what would happen if we never did anything new? We'd still be living in caves for fear of using tools. Read my response to Henrin about "free".

The problem is that the idea of national health care is more than a century old and back then there wasn't much to health care anyway. The idea that health could be insured and be profitable took hold in the 1940s. What would be new would be a free market that allowed diffrent options to the actual needs of different people instead of forcing everybody into programs that must be approved by the Federal government. Empower the patient to chose options that suit them.

Those without adequate care are forced to go to the emergency room and also miss out on tremendous amounts of preventative care that could save much money and lives down the road.

A lot of these cases are undocumented workers. Given that there are "free" clinics to the poor, there should be no problem with preventative care unless like most people they do not want to follow it.
This is highly inefficient and a plus of Obamacare. We're already paying for it.

Obama Care will eventually require to have elderly people to be denied coverage since that is where the largest cost will be. They will be encouraged to die with "help" if necessary. This would be a violation of the Hippocratic oath that is sworn by graduating doctors.

The richest country in the world can afford for everyone to get standardized no questions asked healthcare.

And just what are we going to have to give up even if every thing you say is true about Obama Care? We do not need an overreaching government program to achieve the stated goals. But we would have to be open to real new ideas.


Who cares? Is somebody eating a sandwich they didn't pay for really the worst thing that could happen? Most people work, most people (especially the poor doing menial jobs) contribute much more to society that they receive in compensation.

By your intentions cost sharing must occur somehow. At this time it is paid by those who can pay the costs of their care. Obama Care undermines the ability for people to pay for their costs making the situation worse.

It is unfair for the poor to receive substandard healthcare.

It is also unfair not to pay individual health care workers their due which is often the solution that government has for cost avoidance.

Just a FYI, did you know your "free" checking account at your local bank is paid for by aggressive overdraft fees that rob those with the least amount of money? The poor as a whole are not a drain on the society, quite the opposite.

Perhaps some sort of reform can be done to make sure the fees are justly applied. Also though it might not be possible that the one who is being charged overdraft fees could be little more creative in making their payments and prioritizing what should get paid.


Like our current system that is the most expensive in the world and provides care ranked 39th behind Cuba?

If you believe that there is this Space elevator that I want to get off my hands. :mrgreen:
The "free market" had its chance and it created a bad system
.

The free market never had a chance at all. Government was involved too much for it to be called a free market.

You can blame government intervention for it but we're at the point where we need a new direction and the government completely deregulating healthcare and walking away creating a libertarian utopia ain't gonna happen.

A new direction would be to review all the laws and requlations for health care. Get rid of those laws that are archaic, counter productive to cost pevention, and those that serve to protect a cabal against competition. Determine what health care is becoming and what polices would bring out the greatest benefit for the least cost. These actions must be done in public view and transparency.

Libertarians are the ones living in the real world. They know that Utopias are not possible since we know that real humans will undermine any sort of Utopia that can be imagined.
 
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