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House Bill Defunds Health Care

Congress is trying to pass a bill to defund a law they passed, and if the law they passed isn't defunded by Congress, then Congress will decide to temporarily suspend the government they are responsible (while they themselves are still getting paid) for from work, and likely not pay the bills Congress accumulated.


Take partisanship out of it for just a second and take a moment to think how utterly ridiculous this situation is.
This is a very simplistic view. You speak as if this is the same exact Congress as the one that passed this bill. It isn't. It's an effort to defund a bill they don't agree with. Apparently Congress has had time to read it now (hopefully Pelosi has) and they figured out it sucks.
 
the insurance company's have to pay for the insurance.

:lamo:2rofll: This is the first time I've been here that I had to do a double emoticon laugh.


Insurance companies don't pay for the premium they collect it. Insurance companises do not have money that does not come from the insurees. I suppose you believe in perpetual motion machines also.

They do have to pay reinsurers incase they go bankrupt or have huge losses. I'm certain when the reinsurers falter from this fiasco then the economy will be all but dead. Since so much development requires insurance to back it up. And the existing structures will eventually wear out sooner than you think.
 
This is a very simplistic view. You speak as if this is the same exact Congress as the one that passed this bill. It isn't. It's an effort to defund a bill they don't agree with. Apparently Congress has had time to read it now (hopefully Pelosi has) and they figured out it sucks.

It's an effort to usurp legislative power that the GOP does not possess, and the general public is going to realize that. Anyone who blames this potential shutdown on Democrats is already a partisan hack and their opinion was never going to change on the subject.
 
It's an effort to usurp legislative power that the GOP does not possess, and the general public is going to realize that. Anyone who blames this potential shutdown on Democrats is already a partisan hack and their opinion was never going to change on the subject.

The same argument could be made against the Dems...
 
even Joe lunchbox should be terrified by this eventuality but he can't even balance his own checkbook. trust the AngryOldGuy when he sez:

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But there will be more known unknowns than unknown unknowns. And what is known is more Leviathan than dragon.
 
Is Obamacare right or wrong?
'partisan hack'
yes we should all get free stuff

"person with a functional brain"
um no socialism always fails so it is a really bwad idea
 
But there will be more known unknowns than unknown unknowns. And what is known is more Leviathan than dragon.
Trust my friend it may be unknowable until we arrive but there could be tears and rivers of blood along the way?
 
I don't believe the GOP has any chance of actually changing anything with this... So basically they're holding the country hostage for a period to broadcast just how much they hate Obamacare.

What does this accomplish other than getting everyone riled up? Is that really what we want? More pissed off people screaming at the top of their lungs how much they disagree? Does this lead to a healthier democracy?

I really see no value in this, only negativity and regression. Its a stone's throw away from sabotage which the GOP always denies doing...
 
I don't believe the GOP has any chance of actually changing anything with this... So basically they're holding the country hostage for a period to broadcast just how much they hate Obamacare.

What does this accomplish other than getting everyone riled up? Is that really what we want? More pissed off people screaming at the top of their lungs how much they disagree? Does this lead to a healthier democracy?

I really see no value in this, only negativity and regression. Its a stone's throw away from sabotage which the GOP always denies doing...

They are doing what their constituents asked them to do when they were elected. Is that a bad thing?
 
It's similar to a defeat Obamacare vote, but differently as they're attaching it to something that is actual leverage now.

The Government isn't funded after October 1st at this moment. The Republicans are suggesting passing a bill in the House which would fund the government, except for Obamacare, through December. (This short term funding is called a "Continuing Resolution" and has historically been used often to give additional time to get an actual Fiscal year "budget" passed for the whole year).

So basically putting an option before the Senate...take a bill that keeps the government running, but defunds Obamacare or shut the government down entirely.

Whether it would bite the Republicans in the ass or not is hard to say as it'll rely completley on how each side spins their argument after the fact (were it to happen).

Republicans would suggest that they took initiative to pass a bill that would fund the government, and were seeking to stop a highly unpopular law.

Democrats would suggest the Republicans held the government hostage to kill Obamacare, and that their attempts to keep the Government open wasn't in good faith.

People on either side will think their sides view is generally correct and the other sides view is full of crap. People in the middle will likely be swayed by who puts forth their argument better.



Because, historically, once you actually have people participating in a social welfare program it is ridiculously difficult to take it away. Despite ACA passing a while back, it's not really been implimented in such a way that people are largely and widely being covered under it's provisions. That starts on October 1st currently. So that's kind of the "deadline" to be able to reasonably stop it prior to the point where it becomes an actual social welfare program that you'd then be "taking away" from people.



Aaaaaaaand to my earlier point. Thanks for highlighting how liberals will try to paint it, and stating your view and opinion of it as if it's fact. It's amazing how that just flows off partisans tongues when speaking of things.



So your question isn't an honest one in the least, and this entire post just devolved into stereotypical hyper partisan drivel. Gotcha.

No, the general mindset of Republicans is that the cost of it will be overwhelming and ultimately a negative on our economy and our budget but that it will follow the standard path of most social welfare programs that, regardless of their level of success, tend to be very difficult to remove. In terms of political campaigning as well, once it actually goes into affect and people get insurance under the program it makes it FAR more difficult to campaign against as well because it becomes a point that the other side can claim you're trying to take peoples insurance away.

Now, whether or not it actually DOES cause the cost of government to rise as much as Republicans fear...that's to be seen. And surely, if the cost DOESN'T go up, they would have an even HARDER time to remove it after the fact. But the baseline of their fear is a historically understood fact amongst the Political Science community in terms of social welfare programs and their status as some of the hardest programs to remove once people are actually involved in it. Based largely on the fact that basic human nature is more reticent to give up something they HAVE or believe they have, as opposed to something they don't.

That's a pretty good explanation for the Republican argument. I still think it's mostly motivated by spite, though. I mean, this isn't a socialist law. If anything, it benefits private business (insurance companies), who will get more customers. And believe it or not, there are people that get a job just for the health insurance. People like artists take part time jobs that provide health benefits just to get affordable health care. If you can get the same health care on your own, such people might not seek work, opening up positions for people that have been struggling to find it.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and how much Republican states will try to blunt its success (that's not me saying that, that's Republican governors and state governments). One thing nobody knows is the future, so nobody is smart enough to know if it fails or succeeds.
 
what it accomplishes is it takes a massively flawed and growingly unpopular bill and puts it front and center again.

Then, the dems have to re-establish their support of its known flaws, then force obama to veto it and support a bill he continues to delay implementation because of these known flaws.

known
 
To minimize damage. To take a nautical metaphor, our ship of state has a course that will run aground on a reef. Are you saying that we should just let it do so for the temporary benefit of nailing the Democrats with the blame? Would not a mark of a statesman be to prevent this?

Furthermore, this Obama Care is a threat to Liberty. I would not risk allowing it to go any further than I would have to and I do not think that the Republicans should do so either.

Obama Care is going to make health care more expensive, more scarce and rationed, and an decreasingly lower quality of care as long as it exists.

Relax. First, as you are a Libertarian, I know enough not to argue about liberty.

Second, I know it's typical liberal bleeding-heart stuff, but if health care gets a little more expensive and covers a little more people, I think that's the morally superior option. I don't see how it will be more "scarce" if more people receive it. And Americans receive worse health care for more money than other parts of the world already, so that's not an argument to go back to the status quo.
 
According to the NBC evening news, which I'm watching while perusing this forum, the stock market just took a dump because of fears of a government shut down.
 
They are doing what their constituents asked them to do when they were elected. Is that a bad thing?

Shut down the government because they didn't get their way? That's not a bad thing?

I know in a forum its easy to say "yeah man lets shut the whole thing down!!! wooohooo!!!". In the real world these things have consequences and can badly hurt people who don't deserve it. As I alluded to earlier the GOP isn't going to change anything so again, what is the use in doing this?
 
Shut down the government because they didn't get their way? That's not a bad thing?

I know in a forum its easy to say "yeah man lets shut the whole thing down!!! wooohooo!!!". In the real world these things have consequences and can badly hurt people who don't deserve it. As I alluded to earlier the GOP isn't going to change anything so again, what is the use in doing this?

Why do you vote for a representative? Do you vote for them to go along to get along or is it a bit deeper?
 
a insurance company can deny coverage to someone just because they have had a history of cancer, and there is no obligation on the part of the government to prevent someone from dieing.

People who had cancer are more likely to go out of remission than those who did not have cancer getting cancer.

The human race it not Immortal yet. And it is a fact of life that people will die. I do not like the fact that some people will not be able to get treatments that would affect to an outcome of a longer or more fruitful life. Your focus should be on those people and how those people could receive such treatment since it is a primary concern of yours. Just don't drag everyone else in it also.

Health care is something that many people rely on if they get sick, and people should not have to lose everything financially because a insurance company refused to pay for life saving treatment. the government has a moral obligation to care for the lives of its citizens.

If they were insured and the illness was covered the bulk of the cost will be on the insurance company. I'm sorry that some treatments are intensive to the degree that their cost is great. If you want to lower costs I would look into how hospitals nickel and dime a person with a-la-cart billing. Also one could shop for hospitals if one has time to decide on where to get treatment which can lower the bill substantially. And make sure their are laws where one can do so.

Or are the lives of citizens expendable?

Making the citizens expendable tends to be the purview of government not so much as business.:mrgreen:
 
Why do you vote for a representative? Do you vote for them to go along to get along or is it a bit deeper?

I don't wish for my representative to obstruct the government because I disagree with something.
 
I don't wish for my representative to obstruct the government because I disagree with something.

So, you're a go along with the flow type of person?
 
I can't find you on College Football.
I'm sure you have the SEC-14 tied with the PAC-12 in power rankings.
So, you're a go along with the flow type of person?
 
I can't find you on College Football.
I'm sure you have the SEC-14 tied with the PAC-12 in power rankings.

The games are played one at a time, and each team creates its own identity...
 
So, you're a go along with the flow type of person?

It depends on the situation. If you're going to fight a battle, do it because the risk / reward is favorable. The risk here is immediate damage to the country in exchange for angry conservatives to get what? Satisfaction that we all had to listen to their tantrum? When its over things go back to the way they were before it started minus the economic losses we sustained. Its a lose / lose.
 
Let's all take a deep breath and remember that THIS IS THE YEAR 2013. We didn't get flying cars, but did anyone think that at this point we still couldn't figure out an operational way of providing people with health care when they need it?
 
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