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Thread: House Bill Defunds Health Care

  1. #221
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Can you define exactly what they deserve?
    to be used as pawns to further destroy the middle class?

  2. #222
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    The will of the people to shut down the government when there is a disagreement? Really?
    Yes, really. If it comes to the point that it is the only way that this bill be stopped, so be it.


    Would you like a shutdown every time there is a disagreement?
    No only occasionally when the options have been exhausted and a bill must be stopped from being implemented.


    This is a step towards a level of dysfunction that is seriously alarming.
    At best your statement is hyperbole at worst it is a grave misunderstanding on the Checks and Balances one of which is the House has the Purse and it can choose not to fund a department if they so choose.
    Our congress people need to do their job on time with minimal disruption
    No, that only happens with dictatorships with a rubber stamp legislature and in countries that have one ruling party. It does not occur as often in countries with at least a relatively free elections that represent their constituents.

    . This is a highly destructive method of running a country.
    No this is what the Congress should do when their is great controversy on a bill or program. That it is happoinig is showing our government still works as was meant to after as fashion.
    A lot of people want it and whether you like it or not the bill was passed.
    A majority do not want to happen or this would not be happening.

    Holding the country hostage to appease a minority of the population is ridiculous and an excuse.
    It is not a minority and the country is not being held hostage. The Senate could vote for the bill passed and the President can sign it thus avoiding any "shutdown" of the government. We would just not have Obama Care implemented and we can wait til the next election where both chambers are Republican or we can have the bill repealed and start over this time with pleanty of discussion and not having no release of the bll just before the vote.

    To shut down the country? No. A majority view it unfavorably, yes.
    You are wrong. Sorry, but a majority does not want this implemented. They want a repeal. This would include people who want a national health policy. I'm sure that this country can improve the health care but it must be discussed and debated and not done as some backroom dealing that was done to get it passed.

    However if you break down the bill and actually explain it to people they support it.
    They might support some parts of Obama Care, but the parts they object to out way the benefits of the bill.
    This is due to the incredible amounts of propaganda that have branded Obamacare an evil that must be stopped.
    So you want to pass some sort of Sedition Act with respect to Obama Care. I hope you don't mean that.

    Just look at what people on this forum say. They act like a five mile wide meteor is headed to Earth and will wipe out civilization.
    Properly prepared we could survive a meteor strike. There is nothing that we can do to prepare the damage Obama Care will do to health care and the economy.
    Just like they did with electing Obama in 08, and 12, and with everything that happens that negatively effects the rich.
    A lot of the really rich are supporters of Obama Care. Since you are so down on the "rich" that should give you pause. The Republicans are somewhat concerned abut the merely wealthy instead. Paris Hilton is rich. Your average small to mid size business is merely wealthy and Obama Care will be a great burden to them one way or another. Republicans are more concerned what the negative effects would be on the average worker.

    It is somewhat an irony that now Republicans are more the workers Party than the Democrats. Obama Care is a bad system for workers.


    Dysfunctional politics is not a good thing.
    Yes dysfunctional politics such as the current President far exceeding his authority and has made many more violations than his predecessors.

    There are real, negative consequences to this.
    The consequences are far greater if Obama Care is not stopped. And if you want the politics to be less dysfunctional then adhering closer to the Constitution would be a partial solution for that.

    No its not the end of the world but people lose jobs, miss paychecks, can't afford to pay bills.
    Which is already happening due to Obama Care.


    It is highly disruptive all for nothing.
    The nothing is what we will eventually get if Obama Care has a hold on our country.


    Opinion.
    We are a Republic not a Democracy. And my observation is more fact than opinion. The majority of Americans oppose implementing Obama Care. Given that if we were a true Democracy with a national vote over the issue then Obama Care would not just be delayed but repealed.


    Opinion.
    Changing or repealing Obama Care would be a correction which is a value neutral term for a change. You used a negative value term "regression" and thus you were giving opinion. And again the majority is against Obama Care that is not opinion.

    Opinion.
    You would have been better served hyperbole instead. Given what Obama Care is the worst is yet to happen if not stopped.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  3. #223
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    They passed all but the ACA funding aka Obama Care. There is no requirement to pass the budget as a whole in one bill. There should be no objection to the presented bill in the Senate.
    Why not? The Senate doesn't serve as an automatic rubber stamp for the House.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Oh please. It is obstruction. I can't believe you guys are actually trying to float this.
    Please do not group me with the Republicans. I support them on this issue. I have never been a Republican and I will never be one unless they fully embrace and promote strict adherence to the Constitution. And forebear using the government as vehicle to promote the "morality" of less than a great majority of the population. And I would want at least as their platform prohibitions against prosecuting property limit prohibitions on "illegal" drugs among others.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  5. #225
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    If you research the cause of high healthcare costs in the U.S. you will find a very simple answer, price gouging.
    Price gouging is resolvable with transparency with billing. It should be law that all billed items be clear what they are and when provided. In some cases patients were billed for items and services they did not receive. And with respect to overpriced OTCs and other items that are provided I guess we may have to make a law limiting the overage on those things. Limiting it to 3 times the cost would make a large reduction overall.

    Another cost is due to bureaucratic wrangling between the hospitals and providers and the insurance companies and government programs. A possible resolution would require arbitration if the two sides cannot come to an agreement in a reasonable amount of time.

    Republicans might think they are "preserving" health care but that is conservative ideology.
    If you say that Republicans are persisting in a "conservative" ideology, then it can be said that Democrats are persisting in a "progressive" ideology.

    Old is the best, new is bad. If you look at history we are always advancing... what would happen if we never did anything new? We'd still be living in caves for fear of using tools. Read my response to Henrin about "free".
    The problem is that the idea of national health care is more than a century old and back then there wasn't much to health care anyway. The idea that health could be insured and be profitable took hold in the 1940s. What would be new would be a free market that allowed diffrent options to the actual needs of different people instead of forcing everybody into programs that must be approved by the Federal government. Empower the patient to chose options that suit them.

    Those without adequate care are forced to go to the emergency room and also miss out on tremendous amounts of preventative care that could save much money and lives down the road.
    A lot of these cases are undocumented workers. Given that there are "free" clinics to the poor, there should be no problem with preventative care unless like most people they do not want to follow it.
    This is highly inefficient and a plus of Obamacare. We're already paying for it.
    Obama Care will eventually require to have elderly people to be denied coverage since that is where the largest cost will be. They will be encouraged to die with "help" if necessary. This would be a violation of the Hippocratic oath that is sworn by graduating doctors.

    The richest country in the world can afford for everyone to get standardized no questions asked healthcare.
    And just what are we going to have to give up even if every thing you say is true about Obama Care? We do not need an overreaching government program to achieve the stated goals. But we would have to be open to real new ideas.


    Who cares? Is somebody eating a sandwich they didn't pay for really the worst thing that could happen? Most people work, most people (especially the poor doing menial jobs) contribute much more to society that they receive in compensation.
    By your intentions cost sharing must occur somehow. At this time it is paid by those who can pay the costs of their care. Obama Care undermines the ability for people to pay for their costs making the situation worse.

    It is unfair for the poor to receive substandard healthcare.
    It is also unfair not to pay individual health care workers their due which is often the solution that government has for cost avoidance.

    Just a FYI, did you know your "free" checking account at your local bank is paid for by aggressive overdraft fees that rob those with the least amount of money? The poor as a whole are not a drain on the society, quite the opposite.
    Perhaps some sort of reform can be done to make sure the fees are justly applied. Also though it might not be possible that the one who is being charged overdraft fees could be little more creative in making their payments and prioritizing what should get paid.


    Like our current system that is the most expensive in the world and provides care ranked 39th behind Cuba?
    If you believe that there is this Space elevator that I want to get off my hands.
    The "free market" had its chance and it created a bad system
    .

    The free market never had a chance at all. Government was involved too much for it to be called a free market.

    You can blame government intervention for it but we're at the point where we need a new direction and the government completely deregulating healthcare and walking away creating a libertarian utopia ain't gonna happen.
    A new direction would be to review all the laws and requlations for health care. Get rid of those laws that are archaic, counter productive to cost pevention, and those that serve to protect a cabal against competition. Determine what health care is becoming and what polices would bring out the greatest benefit for the least cost. These actions must be done in public view and transparency.

    Libertarians are the ones living in the real world. They know that Utopias are not possible since we know that real humans will undermine any sort of Utopia that can be imagined.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  6. #226
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I didn't even bother to read the rest of your post. Your trying to insert partisanship to argue a statement I made where I expressly said to ignore it. What I said was very accurate. I know you're just itching to stand up and blame people, but that was not the point of my comment.
    And I am responding to people who want to blame the Republicans for their action. Turn about is fair play after all.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  7. #227
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Why not? The Senate doesn't serve as an automatic rubber stamp for the House.
    The items that are included in the bill by the House would not have anything controversial in it. I am sure that Republicans would not do anything that would make the Senators reject it. The only reason that the Senators would have is not including spending for Obama Care. The ball is in the Senates court. If the Democratic leaders in the Senate could take off their ideological blinders they would see that the best course for action would be to pass it or make specific objections to parts of the bill as presented and not take the bait to object to having no bill for payment of Obama Care. If they do this then when the elections come they might not loose so badly and be in a better position to negotiate a "reform" of Obama Care that a majority of the population could accept. I think they will not see this correctly and try to do the same game of one upmanship that caused the Republicans to cave in so many times in the past.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  8. #228
    The Dude
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    The items that are included in the bill by the House would not have anything controversial in it.
    Not funding Obamacare wouldn't be "controversial"?
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  9. #229
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Congress is trying to pass a bill to defund a law they passed, and if the law they passed isn't defunded by Congress, then Congress will decide to temporarily suspend the government they are responsible (while they themselves are still getting paid) for from work, and likely not pay the bills Congress accumulated.


    Take partisanship out of it for just a second and take a moment to think how utterly ridiculous this situation is.



    I sincerely hope that the losers on the far right in the GOP go ahead and shut the government down.

    I am totally fed up with those losers and I hope that they go ahead and shoot themselves in the foot.

    I guarantee you that they and the entire GOP will pay a heavy price for that stupidity.

    The USA will survive, but I don't believe that the GOP will still be around very long.




    "Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.
    Last edited by shrubnose; 09-21-13 at 07:29 AM.

  10. #230
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    Re: House Bill Defunds Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    What would repeal or defunding be? One big waiver.
    That's right, one big one for everybody....not just Obama's friends.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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