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Police warned Navy about gunman's mental instability 6 weeks ago, report says

tererun said:
I am willing to say if a person is declared mentally unstable they should not be allowed a gun. And do not think those records are not out there. They just are not allowed to be released to the public. They could certainly keep them private and out of the public's hands while allowing them to refuse a gun sale via national database because of it.

But let us see what road you are going down. You want a guy who hears voices in his head and has been in a few violent scuffles, and was tossed out of the military for his psych issues to be handed any gun he wants without any problem. You want a kid who has severe mental problems so much so he cannot go to school, and has a mental problem which makes him prone to fits where he is uncontrollable whos own mother wanted to have him committed to have access to assault rifles. You want a guy who thinks he is the god damned joker who has been evaluated by a school shrink to be psycho to be able to stockpile weapons and bombs. You want a certifiably crazy asian kid to be able to get guns. This is where your path leads. Oh, and ihn case you missed it I am talking about this shooter, the sandyhook shooter, the batman movie shooter, and the VA tech shooter. There are other instances of single or multiple serial killers which we could have at least hindered some by saying no to their legal purchase of a gun. That is not to mention the ones who have been evaluated as suicidal and clinically depressed who get guns and kill themselves.

This is why the gun nuts get a bad rep. it is because they do not want to discuss any reasonable and good restriction on the ownership of a deadly weapon. I think it is quite reasonable to say if you are psychologically a nutbar it is time we at least keep you from buying a legal firearm. At least sending them to a criminal dealer runs the risk of a sting bust, or in the case of severe aspergers renders it near imkpossible because someone like Adam Lanza did not have the social skills necessary to go hunting for an illegal firearm.
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way stop there should we have doctors report all patients who have fantasies of raping underage little girls or boys so to keep him or her from working or being around children even though they havnt acted on his or her pedophilia

wouldn't that also keep the mentally ill from seeking help knowing they will be reported to law enforcement for being mentally ill
 
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trfjr said:
way stop there should we have doctors report all patients who have fantasies of raping underage little girls or boys so to keep him or her from working or being around children even though they havnt acted on his or her pedophilia
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I am actually pretty good with that one too. There are other jobs for them, and I am good with keeping pedos away from kids because of child molestation. You may wish to pick a better example.
trfjr said:
wouldn't that also keep the mentally ill from seeking help knowing they will be reported to law enforcement for being mentally ill
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It might, but if we are not going to act on it anyway, it doesn't do anything to stop them anyway. Seriously, if i am seeing a shrink because of two violent incidents which I have seen reported were with a gun, and i am hearing voices in my head and the doctor does not do anything about it, how is that any good at all? Plus, the reality is school shrinks and teachers need to report these things anyway, so let us give that info to some sort of database which can reject an application. If you do not want the gun dealer to know why the application was rejected do it the way a store does it when you are denied a credit card and give them the info so you can check your personal record on the database yourself without sharing your personal info and make sure it is correct and challenge any inaccuracies.
 
trfjr said:
Read more: Police warned Navy about gunman's mental instability 6 weeks ago, report says | Fox News

50 years ago the police would have been allowed to involuntary commit Aaron Alexis to a mental facility for at least a 2 week evaluation. he could have gotten the help he needed and saved the public from his mental breakdown that led to the shooting
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How Libertarian of you to support a blatant display of statism. More signs that the "freedom" the right wing talks about is utter bull****.
 
tererun said:
I am actually pretty good with that one too. There are other jobs for them, and I am good with keeping pedos away from kids because of child molestation. You may wish to pick a better example.


It might, but if we are not going to act on it anyway, it doesn't do anything to stop them anyway. Seriously, if i am seeing a shrink because of two violent incidents which I have seen reported were with a gun, and i am hearing voices in my head and the doctor does not do anything about it, how is that any good at all? Plus, the reality is school shrinks and teachers need to report these things anyway, so let us give that info to some sort of database which can reject an application. If you do not want the gun dealer to know why the application was rejected do it the way a store does it when you are denied a credit card and give them the info so you can check your personal record on the database yourself without sharing your personal info and make sure it is correct and challenge any inaccuracies.
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so according to you there is no such thing as civil liberties you want to live in a police state that they have you, your medical history, and all accessed by the government to be used in any way they feel fit. if you want to live like that im sure they will gladly accept you in Cube China or N.Korea but don't you dare try to make my country into some kind of Orwellian society
 
trfjr said:
so according to you there is no such thing as civil liberties you want to live in a police state that they have you, your medical history, and all accessed by the government to be used in any way they feel fit. if you want to live like that im sure they will gladly accept you in Cube China or N.Korea but don't you dare try to make my country into some kind of Orwellian society
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No. That's not what he's saying at all.
 
Hatuey said:
How Libertarian of you to support a blatant display of statism. More signs that the "freedom" the right wing talks about is utter bull****.
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Im a libertarian realist I agree with civil liberties as long as they don't infringe or endanger on others
Him telling the cops he is hearing voices is a sure sign of paranoid schizophrenia and they are a danger to them selves and or others if not treated

also being politically affiliated with a belief doesn't mean you have to tow the line on all what they believe or be as extreme as some
for example I believe in the legalization of Pot but not coke meth or heroin like some libertarians believe because I do see the harm of those hard drugs have on society
 
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Hatuey said:
No. That's not what he's saying at all.
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yes he is he is all for the government to keep a data base on all who ever showed signs of mental illness and would like to add that almost could be 25% of the public
he wants the government to keep track of them and to do what they can to keep them from being a threat even if they never committed any crime
 
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trfjr said:
so according to you there is no such thing as civil liberties you want to live in a police state that they have you, your medical history, and all accessed by the government to be used in any way they feel fit. if you want to live like that im sure they will gladly accept you in Cube China or N.Korea but don't you dare try to make my country into some kind of Orwellian society
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No, that is not what I said. i said that if you have shown mental instability to the point where it has been noted by society that you should not be allowed to own a gun. I did not even say you should have to undergo a psych eval to get a gun. You made a logic jump right off a cliff and I am not following you. if you would like to argue why people who have been declared a danger to themselves or others because of a psychotic state should have guns feel free. if you would like to argue that we are infringing on the rights of people who have been wacko enough in public to get noticed, i have to say we already do that. We can already put you in a 3 day psych eval with no reason aside from shrink says so and strip you of your freedom. We can already throw you into a psych ward against your will without you committing a crime. the only reason that has become less common is because of money. We save it by letting patients out, and we spend a lot more on their meds when we do.
 
tererun said:
No, that is not what I said. i said that if you have shown mental instability to the point where it has been noted by society that you should not be allowed to own a gun. I did not even say you should have to undergo a psych eval to get a gun. You made a logic jump right off a cliff and I am not following you. if you would like to argue why people who have been declared a danger to themselves or others because of a psychotic state should have guns feel free. if you would like to argue that we are infringing on the rights of people who have been wacko enough in public to get noticed, i have to say we already do that. We can already put you in a 3 day psych eval with no reason aside from shrink says so and strip you of your freedom. We can already throw you into a psych ward against your will without you committing a crime. the only reason that has become less common is because of money. We save it by letting patients out, and we spend a lot more on their meds when we do.
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Federal Law

Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”

and no you cant willy nilly throw some one involuntary into a mental institute unless they show signs of immediate threat to one self or others unless you want to get sued
you actually have to go through a court process to be involuntary committed
 
trfjr said:
Federal Law

Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”
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Such a law becomes pointless if you do not show them the info. That is how they get around the law by doing what you want and pretending they have no right to check on that. Are you telling us there is some sign on a person like a scarlet letter that indicates they were in a mental institution or have been declared mentally incompetent? That information has to be compiled and shared with every gon seller in the US and that is what you have been bitching about so far in this thread. that is sharing medical records. That according to you is big brother and an invasion of your privacy. I agree with that, but it needs to be applied properly which it is not.

trfjr said:
and no you cant willy nilly throw some one involuntary into a mental institute unless they show signs of immediate threat to one self or others unless you want to get sued
you actually have to go through a court process to be involuntary committed
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It is pretty reliant upon the judgment of a psychologist. the evaluation period is not being committed. Those three days are for the evaluation. it is like being detained and not arrested only in this case it is three days. Yes, when rthey are done with that there has to be some sort of legal proceeding to fully commit you, but they can hold you for evaluation.
 
I really think this was a false flag attack setup by the government.

Why are attacks on American soil now suddenly all in bases where services people are?

There is a big protest in DC tomorrow where transport truck drivers from all over the nation are planning to shut down the city by congesting traffic. Funny that these "attacks" always happen before big rebellions.

Don't believe the hype.
 
tererun said:
Such a law becomes pointless if you do not show them the info. That is how they get around the law by doing what you want and pretending they have no right to check on that. Are you telling us there is some sign on a person like a scarlet letter that indicates they were in a mental institution or have been declared mentally incompetent? That information has to be compiled and shared with every gon seller in the US and that is what you have been bitching about so far in this thread. that is sharing medical records. That according to you is big brother and an invasion of your privacy. I agree with that, but it needs to be applied properly which it is not.



It is pretty reliant upon the judgment of a psychologist. the evaluation period is not being committed. Those three days are for the evaluation. it is like being detained and not arrested only in this case it is three days. Yes, when rthey are done with that there has to be some sort of legal proceeding to fully commit you, but they can hold you for evaluation.
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wrong again you are not allowed to be detained even for a three day evolution unless you show signs of significant physical risk to self or others
 
Kobie said:
Right, because no mass shooters have been white. My eyes are rolling to far back in my head I can see my own brain stem.
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One has nothing to do with the other. Anyone familiar with government contracts knows that minorities are first in line for jobs and the contracts themselves when the companies are minority owned. The flags this man had on his record would have kept a high percentage of people from ever getting that position on a Navy Yard.
 
trfjr said:
so what are you suggesting go back to they way it was? instead of waiting them to commit a violent crime and lock them up in jail forcibly lock them up in a mental institution drug them before they commit a violent crime?
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That would be the lesser of two evils for sure, but perhaps something in between would be better.
 
trfjr said:
Im a libertarian realist I agree with civil liberties as long as they don't infringe or endanger on others
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This doesn't seem to be the case, considering you're willing to be judge on who is and isn't mentally ill without the slightest training in psychology or psychiatry.

Him telling the cops he is hearing voices is a sure sign of paranoid schizophrenia
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As you're not a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist of any sort, you can't confirm that.

Hearing Voices

Sound research with many voice hearers, both within and outside of mental health services, has found that how voice hearers cope with their voices (or don’t) depends not on the content of the voice experience (which can be either abusive and devaluing or guiding and inspiring – or both) but on the nature of the relationship with the voices. If you believe the voices to be in control you can’t cope; if you believe you are stronger than the voices are, you can.

This means it is no longer a sustainable position to think of voices as part of a disease syndrome, such as schizophrenia. Instead hearing voices can be regarded as a meaningful, real (although sometimes painful, fearful and overwhelming) experience that speak to the person in a metaphorical way about their life, emotions and environment. For instance, people experiencing distress as a consequence of abusive or commanding voices can often recognise their voices as those of their actual abusers and the voices have the effect of attacking their sense of self esteem and worth.
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trfjr said:
no im just pointing out the hypocrisy. I'm all for civil rights but also I draw a line when it comes to public safety
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This makes no sense.. If you are all for civil rights, you recognize the individual right over the collective right. So that's not a libertarian (right side of the spectrum) position.
 
trfjr said:
Read more: Police warned Navy about gunman's mental instability 6 weeks ago, report says | Fox News

50 years ago the police would have been allowed to involuntary commit Aaron Alexis to a mental facility for at least a 2 week evaluation. he could have gotten the help he needed and saved the public from his mental breakdown that led to the shooting
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Really, is that the way you think America should go? How does one deem who's crazy and who is not? What happens if some people think you're crazy and call the cops on you? Would you be cool with a 2 week time out?
 
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