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Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

ChrisL said:
BTW, the only reason why he was turned down was because he was from out of state. AND he could have easily purchased any weapon he wanted off the black market. Do you deny that?
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Moving goalposts.

HE DIDNT purchase a black market weapon and there is no indication he would have.

You said laws don't stop anyone from getting guns. This very case demonstrated that a law prevented this gunman from getting a weapon and he had to settle for a lesser one. Someone is probably alive right now because of this law.

Yes, you can buy things off the black market. That doesn't mean you throw your hands up snd pretend laws are ineffective.
 
Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

TurtleDude said:
you pretty much disqualify your posts from ever being taken seriously when you call an AR 15 an assault rifle. FEDERAL LAW prevents someone from buying a handgun in a state other than their residence.
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In other words, you don't like the root of the argument, so you'll dismiss it for technical reasons.

Sharp.
 
MarineTpartier said:
gunner said:
When he purchased his weapons is immaterial. What should be more worrying is the fact his weapons were not confiscated on health grounds. Again, highlighting the ease of gun ownership.


So what do you propose we do about the mental health issue? Should we have a national, Federally run database that all doctors report mentally unstable patients they deem unfit to buy firearms to?
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Would that be such a bad policy?

Paul
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Re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard

MarineTpartier said:
You know, I'm big enough to admit when I don't know something just as you were with your post. And this is one of those instances. I don't know. The only thing I can say is refer to my signature line and read the words of the great Thomas Jefferson. I think that may be all we can do. And that sucks.
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Actually, I think you have a good point. If it is not possible to screen out the dangerously mentally ill without infringing on the liberty of the rest of us, then we'd be better off to simply live with the mentally ill.

As for bringing a shotgun on to a Naval base, a metal detector could have prevented that, couldn't it?
 
gunner said:
Would that be such a bad policy?

Paul
Click to expand...
I expected you to answer that way. No use in debating the point. I will say this though. Some of us don't like the gov't knowing every single thing about us. Trust me, from someone that the gov't does know everything about, it's not fun. You have no idea what it feels like for the gov't to totally involved in everything you do. To know that your political beliefs have to be muzzled in every facet of life minus anonymous forums such as this. That reporting anything that may be misconstrued as mentally unstable (like PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury, etc) is not smart for your job security. That you have to adhere to a certain body type and if not, you are discharged/lose benefits/medical care is tailored. You have to go to certain schools to be promoted. Etc, etc. Before you think this is a woe is me post, it's not. There are many good things about the military. I only say all of that to say this. I volunteer for this. I know what to expect. I know I am doing something for the defense of our nation by sacrificing some of my freedoms. Only .5% of our country sees fit to volunteer for this at any one time. What people such as yourself believe is that EVERYONE should be held to standards like this. Everyone should be in shape and, if not, the gov't should intercede. Everyone should register in a national database like we do if they report mental health issues. Everyone should get an education. That's not how it works. Not everyone wants the gov't to know their business. Not everyone cares if they are fit. At least not enough to adhere to the standards we do. Not everyone wants to go to college. Not everyone is capable of completing college. What's good for you isn't good for everyone. That's what you and people like you need to realize.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Last i read, he was originally from NY, was stationed in Texas for a time, and just recently returned from Japan. But you know how details are constantly changing with these incidents
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Probably drank too many big sodas.....
 
ChrisL said:
AND he could have easily purchased any weapon he wanted off the black market. Do you deny that?
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Yes. You seem to have this idea that black market guns are easily accessible and offer and endless choice in armament, which I see absolutely no evidence for. Second, if the black market was so easily accessible and convenient, then why didn't he just go buy an AR there, as opposed to settling for a shotgun?


You keep going on about this mythical gun market in the sky, but present no evidence for it. It's just as silly as your contention that gun laws do not restrict access (as you ironically complain about gun laws because they would restrict your access. These arguments do not help your cause. They just make you look completely out of touch
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes. You seem to have this idea that black market guns are easily accessible and offer and endless choice in armament, which I see absolutely no evidence for. Second, if the black market was so easily accessible and convenient, then why didn't he just go buy an AR there, as opposed to settling for a shotgun?


You keep going on about this mythical gun market in the sky, but present no evidence for it. It's just as silly as your contention that gun laws do not restrict access (as you ironically complain about gun laws because they would restrict your access. These arguments do not help your cause. They just make you look completely out of touch
Click to expand...

Private Gun Sale Loophole Creates Invisible Firearms Market, Prompts Calls For Reform

Both incidents point to a major loophole in the nation's system of regulating firearms, experts say: Private parties can buy and sell guns in many parts of the country with little or no scrutiny from state and federal authorities. Nearly 40 percent of gun transactions in America occur through so-called private party sales, creating a secondary firearms market that is largely invisible.
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Mythical?
 
Threegoofs said:
That's not the black market.
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Technically, no, it's not as it is perfectly legal. It does, however, show how easy it is to buy a gun without any background check or any sort of oversight.

Gun control laws, like drug laws, simply can't be enforced.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Mythical?
Click to expand...

So your evidence of this vast and easily accessible illegal gun market is to cite legal loopholes in modern firearm regulations? Think about that for a minute then get back to me
 
Dittohead not! said:
Technically, no, it's not as it is perfectly legal. It does, however, show how easy it is to buy a gun without any background check or any sort of oversight.
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Which is a consequence of loose regulation. Hardly something you want to be citing while making an argument for the current status queue

Gun control laws, like drug laws, simply can't be enforced.
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So your argument is that weak gun regulations fueling the a market of shady legal transactions is proof that gun regulations don't work?


How does that even begin to make sense to you?
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Which is a consequence of loose regulation. Hardly something you want to be citing while making an argument for the current status queue



So your argument is that weak gun regulations fueling the a market of shady legal transactions is proof that gun regulations don't work?


How does that even begin to make sense to you?
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Status queue?
Am I in line?

It makes sense because anyone who wants to get a gun can get one.

Here's some more, to add to Vancemack's examples:

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list.
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linkfrontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

What’s not well-known is that the vast majority of the approximately 12,000 annual gun murders and 66,000 non-fatal shootings are committed by people who have no legal right to a gun. How do criminals and other prohibited people get guns so easily? Through a highly efficient, organized, and profitable business of gun trafficking that moves guns from legal manufacture to dealers to criminals and young people who can’t buy guns legally.
Virtually every gun starts out as a legally manufactured product, but the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) points to three common ways guns move from legal distribution channels to the criminal market:
Corrupt federally licensed gun dealers: Federally licensed gun dealers send more guns to the criminal market than any other single source. Nearly 60% of the guns used in crime are traced back to a small number—just 1.2%—of crooked gun dealers. Corrupt dealers frequently have high numbers of missing guns, in many cases because they’re selling guns “off the books” to private sellers and criminals. In 2005, the ATF examined 3,083 gun dealers and found 12,274 “missing” firearms.
Straw purchasing: Straw purchasing is the most common way criminals get guns, accounting for almost 50% of trafficking investigations. A straw purchaser is someone with a clean record who buys guns on behalf of someone legally prohibited from possessing guns. Straw purchasers are often the friends, relatives, spouses or girlfriends of prohibited purchasers. The two Columbine High School shooters recruited friends to buy guns for them at Colorado gun shows. One of the buyers admitted she would not have bought the guns if she had been required to submit to a background check.
Gun Shows and private gun sales: Gun shows have been called “Tupperware parties for criminals” because they attract large numbers of prohibited buyers. A loophole in federal law allows unlicensed or “private” sellers, many of whom work out of gun shows, to lawfully sell or transfer guns without conducting a criminal background check. Gun show dealers have been known to advertise to criminals with signs that read “no background checks required here.”
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link to that one

There's a lot more, of course, but I'll save those for later. I'm sure you'll come back with something else.
 
VanceMack said:
The black market...
Mexican marines seize 900 guns
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...1.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..15.8.763.e7LC_T6l-JA

And ANYONE that buys guns at a gunshow with the intent to sell to criminals would absolutely be considered a part of the black market.
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1) So you cite a news article about guns in mexico to make a point about the illegal availability of guns in the US?

2) The market cited above, as the article makes clear, is the byproduct of loose gun regulations and the transactions are done completely within the law. So I fail to see how it constitutes a black market and serves as an argument against further regulation.

Maybe explain it to me

3) I'm not sure what purpose the picture is suppose to serve. Being that it was a general search on confiscated guns and includes pictures from outside the US, and no one argued that a black market doesn't exist, only that it isn't as accessible as some are claiming
 
Dittohead not! said:
Status queue? It makes sense because anyone who wants to get a gun can get one.
Click to expand...

lol, the market is a by product of loose regulation and is legal. So no, it does not serve as evidence that black market guns are easily accessible and regulation will not change that

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list.
Click to expand...

What is this suppose to address?

Your second link is an advocacy site that doesn't even reference it's sources. And on top of that, it just mainly highlights the issue of loose regulation. loose legal transactions are not a black market, especially in the context of this discussion
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
1) So you cite a news article about guns in mexico to make a point about the illegal availability of guns in the US?

2) The market cited above, as the article makes clear, is the byproduct of loose gun regulations and the transactions are done completely within the law. So I fail to see how it constitutes a black market and serves as an argument against further regulation.

Maybe explain it to me

3) I'm not sure what purpose the picture is suppose to serve. Being that it was a general search on confiscated guns and includes pictures from outside the US, and no one argued that a black market doesn't exist, only that it isn't as accessible as some are claiming
Click to expand...
do you believe with a porous border that has allowed approx 20-30 million ILLEGALS at any given time and a booming drug trade that somehow illegal guns ARENT part of that equation?
There is one absolute and undeniable fact that you seem to want to ignore. All those violent criminals in the US are NOT going to Bobs Gun store, presenting ID, passing a background check, and then becoming violent thugs. theya re getting their guns ILLEGALLY and ANY purchase made ilegally would be considered a part of the black market trade. Perhaps you have missed it, but there are more than few armed gangs and assorted violent thugs out there.

So...you REALLY dont think there is a guns black market in the US?
"Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
lol, the market is a by product of loose regulation and is legal. So no, it does not serve as evidence that black market guns are easily accessible and regulation will not change that



What is this suppose to address?

Your second link is an advocacy site that doesn't even reference it's sources. And on top of that, it just mainly highlights the issue of loose regulation. loose legal transactions are not a black market, especially in the context of this discussion
Click to expand...

So, you really don't think criminals can get guns in the USA?

or that tighter regulations could actually keep them from getting them?

You're trying hard, but you've taken a position that just isn't tenable.

OK, one more source for you to poo poo:
LIMA - At a shooting inside a Lima bar earlier this month that injured four, police found an expensive handgun.

Officers traced the gun to a burglary in American Township in the past year. The two men charged in connection with the shooting at Marko's bar on South Main Street were unable to legally have a gun because of their criminal backgrounds.

So how did the two men, Michael G. Thompson, 19, and Dominique K. Durr, 22, be charged with illegally having a gun in a place that sells alcohol? Police were still trying to determine who fired the shots inside the bar. Another big question is where do people involved in gun crimes get guns?

Criminals do not go into the local sporting goods store or gun shop to buy guns. The law prohibits anyone convicted of a felony from buying or owning a gun. Criminals also do not follow the law and the "no guns" signs posted on both doors to enter Marko's did nothing to stop those who brought guns in that night.

"If a criminal wants a gun, they can't go and buy it because they have a criminal record. They are going to buy it off an individual or they are going to trade for it," said Chief Deputy Jimmy Everett, of the Allen County Sheriff's Office.
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Now, your turn: How do you suggest that we stop criminals from getting guns?
or do you seriously believe that they can't get guns now?
 
Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

Dittohead not! said:
Technically, no, it's not as it is perfectly legal. It does, however, show how easy it is to buy a gun without any background check or any sort of oversight.

Gun control laws, like drug laws, simply can't be enforced.
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I was with you up to the last sentence.

Do you think SAMs are not available in the US because of lack of demand? I'm pretty sure the laws play a major role...
 
VanceMack said:
do you believe with a porous border that has allowed approx 20-30 million ILLEGALS at any given time and a booming drug trade that somehow illegal guns ARENT part of that equation?
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Yes, flowing into mexico from the US. Secondly, guns do not behave the same way as drugs in a market


There is one absolute and undeniable fact that you seem to want to ignore. All those violent criminals in the US are NOT going to Bobs Gun store, presenting ID, passing a background check, and then becoming violent thugs. theya re getting their guns ILLEGALLY and ANY purchase made ilegally would be considered a part of the black market trade. Perhaps you have missed it, but there are more than few armed gangs and assorted violent thugs out there.
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1) Actually, this has no relation to my argument. Which was not that an illegal trade doesn't exist, but that it isn't as robust and easily accessible as some are stating here

2) the links from you and dittohead paint the issue as mainly being dependent on weak regulations fueling legal, though questionable, transactions. So, again, as an argument that easily accessible black market guns are the consequence of heavy regulation (which was the argument I was addressing) it leaves something to be desired

So...you REALLY dont think there is a guns black market in the US?
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No, I was very clear in what I wrote, and that was obviously not it. Reread and get back to me:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-us-navy-yard-w-69-a-49.html#post1062330689

Notice nowhere do I claim a black market "Does not exist". But that it isn't as accessible and as well stocked as some claim
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, flowing into mexico from the US. Secondly, guns do not behave the same way as drugs in a market




1) Actually, this has no relation to my argument. Which was not that an illegal trade doesn't exist, but that it isn't as robust and easily accessible as some are stating here

2) the links from you and dittohead paint the issue as mainly being dependent on weak regulations fueling legal, though questionable, transactions. So, again, as an argument that easily accessible black market guns are the consequence of heavy regulation (which was the argument I was addressing) it leaves something to be desired



No, I was very clear in what I wrote, and that was obviously not it. Reread and get back to me:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-us-navy-yard-w-69-a-49.html#post1062330689

Notice nowhere do I claim a black market "Does not exist". But that it isn't as accessible and as well stocked as some claim
Click to expand...
The PBS article easily refutes your 'opinion' that the illegal gun trade is not robust. It also shows that it accounts for 85-90% of the illegal guns used by violent criminals in the US. Now...feel free to do with that what you will.
 
Dittohead not! said:
So, you really don't think criminals can get guns in the USA?
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lol, no, I was rather clear in what I wrote.

or that tighter regulations could actually keep them from getting them?
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Part of what makes this exchange so laughable is that the very sources you are citing allude to and suggest that tighter regulations would help limit the access criminals have to guns. If you want to take the absurdest position that regulation needs to prevent criminals from ever getting guns, that is on you. But it's an argument that makes no sense and feel no need to address it

Now, your turn: How do you suggest that we stop criminals from getting guns?
or do you seriously believe that they can't get guns now?
Click to expand...

Who said anything about criminals never being able to get guns? My argument concerned limited access and your own links suggest theft accounts for a small part of criminal acquisition of firearms (10-15%)
 
VanceMack said:
The PBS article easily refutes your 'opinion' that the illegal gun trade is not robust. It also shows that it accounts for 85-90% of the illegal guns used by violent criminals in the US. Now...feel free to do with that what you will.
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It does? Can you quote the relevant material
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
It does? Can you quote the relevant material
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I posted a quote, I gave you the article. Try reading. OR...in lieu of that lets just accept this as a fact. YOU may be clueless how to obtain illegal firearms. OBVIOUSLY...violent criminals...they got it knocked.
 
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