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Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

TurtleDude said:
actually most do. The average cop shoots less than 200 rounds a year. Me-that's a light week of training. My 15 year old son has close to 100,000 rounds of experience.
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But we are not talking about you, we are talking about CCW permit holders as a whole. You represent one person
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
It's not a silly argument. It's rather clear the bar is set higher in becoming a cop than it is acquiring a CCW permit (at least where I live). If you disagree feel free to explain why as opposed to having a silly tantrum. It would also make for more effective advocacy, if that is your interest here
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It doesn't seem to have occurred to him that there are qualifications beyond being able to fire a weapon at a target with accuracy.
 
Deuce said:
Being better at shooting does not make you more qualified to carry a weapon.
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all things else being equal it does. and you cannot disprove my statement because you aren't trained in this area. again, I am far more qualified to carry weapons than 99% of the cops in the USA. and that is true with tons of CCW holders who are better educated, smarter and have more training than most cops.
 
stonewall50 said:
Are you comparing specifically firearms related training? Because police have a wider variety of material to cover.
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No, I am pointing out that it's more difficult to become a cop than simply getting a CCW. I know people with a CCW who could never make it as a cop.

PS what material is required to be covered for a CCW where you live? For me, I need to pass a background check and get a written recommendation from two people in my county. Clearly nothing that requires training or any knowledge of a gun, what so ever.

So the appeal to it being some dividing line on skill still seems silly
 
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TurtleDude said:
all things else being equal it does. and you cannot disprove my statement because you aren't trained in this area.
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Why would he have to disprove your statement? The burden of proof rests with you
 
Deuce said:
It doesn't seem to have occurred to him that there are qualifications beyond being able to fire a weapon at a target with accuracy.
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That's funny coming from someone I doubt has any clue what it takes to carry a weapon properly.

lets see

I have a law degree

I have been in a shooting situation in which my actions were not only ruled proper but were commended by the DA and the Sheriff and the presiding judge of the county court,

I have defended police officers and agencies in shooting situations

and I am a world class shot

yeah, I am far more qualified than most cops

then again, so is my 15 year old son and that is coming not just from me but one of the Top police trainers in Ohio-a guy who is nationally acclaimed in this area
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
It's not a silly argument. It's rather clear the bar is set higher in becoming a cop than it is acquiring a CCW permit (at least where I live). If you disagree feel free to explain why as opposed to having a silly tantrum. It would also make for more effective advocacy, if that is your interest here
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but you confuse that with an insinuation that those who become cops are a higher caliber individual than those who get CCWs. That is not true
 
Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

TurtleDude said:
you are wrong. I will quote the former Cincinnati PD firearms instructor's testimony to Cincinnati City council years ago (BEFORE WE HAVE CCW)

He noted if he went to the police range and chose 10 police officers at random and then drove a couple miles to the public indoor range target word, and chose 10 random shooters, and tested them on gun safety, marksmanship and shoot don't shoot scenarios, the non cops would win EVERY TIME.

having trained hundreds of people, having spent hundreds of hours each year at ranges and training facilities and having defended police departments in these areas, I can tell you SMTA is absolutely correct.
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Hmmm. If Cops are such ****ty gunmen, maybe the best thing to do is to not allow them to have weapons. Like in Europe, where peace officers carry batons.
 
TurtleDude said:
you are wrong. I will quote the former Cincinnati PD firearms instructor's testimony to Cincinnati City council years ago (BEFORE WE HAVE CCW)

He noted if he went to the police range and chose 10 police officers at random and then drove a couple miles to the public indoor range target word, and chose 10 random shooters, and tested them on gun safety, marksmanship and shoot don't shoot scenarios, the non cops would win EVERY TIME.

having trained hundreds of people, having spent hundreds of hours each year at ranges and training facilities and having defended police departments in these areas, I can tell you SMTA is absolutely correct.
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Like I said in my last post, even if CCW's are better it doesn't account for having more people in a situation where most, if no one knows who the shooter is, what he looks like and they and the police forces coming in and having not a clue as to who, with a gun, is the bad guy.
 
TurtleDude said:
but you confuse that with an insinuation that those who become cops are a higher caliber individual than those who get CCWs
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No, I am pointing out that it is clearly more difficult and requires more arms training, becoming a cop, than it does getting a CCW in my area.


That is not true
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No, it clearly is and I have clearly outlined why. But again, feel free to actually point out any flaws in my argument s and reasoning. I more than welcome them
 
SMTA said:
You can seriously doubt truthful information that challenges your view of the world all you want to.
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Well if it were so truthful, why didn't you back it up with more than snark? It makes it much more easy to believe you if you do.

SMTA said:
I have been on both sides of this fence, and my comments are dead on.
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And you still didn't address my last sentence. How does introducing more guns into a scenario where nobody knows who the bad guy is but several people have drawn guns help?
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
But we are not talking about you, we are talking about CCW permit holders as a whole. You represent one person
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I shoot with our local Sheriff and his department annually.

No one has yet beaten me.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
No, I am pointing out that it is clearly more difficult and requires more arms training, becoming a cop, than it does getting a CCW in my area.




No, it clearly is and I have clearly outlined why. But again, feel free to actually point out any flaws in my argument s and reasoning. I more than welcome them
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well your claim has no relevance because it does not explain why cops are more likely to shoot innocent people and miss bad guys than those who have the "easier route" of carrying

I know the reason since I am a professional in this field. I want you to take a stab at it
 
SMTA said:
I shoot with our local Sheriff and his department annually.

No one has yet beaten me.
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I don't doubt it when I represented the Sheriff's department as an associate at a big law firm, the Sheriff asked me if I would want to be "deputized" so I could shoot for his department in the state LEO events. I was going to another position so I had to decline but I was pretty much the top dog in the area other than an ATF guy who was about the best there ever was
 
poweRob said:
Well if it were so truthful, why didn't you back it up with more than snark? It makes it much more easy to believe you if you do.



And you still didn't address my last sentence. How does introducing more guns into a scenario where nobody knows who the bad guy is but several people have drawn guns help?
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You fail to understand that folks like me who carry are not cops and don't want to be cops.

My first instinct is to leave a potentially violent situation, not to engage it.

Unless my wife or kids are involved, I have no business getting involved myself.

We all carry to protect ourselves and our families, not anyone or everyone else.

I have been both a cop and now a CCW holder.

I received minimal firearms training as a cop.

I have trained much more as a private citizen who carries.

I probably know well over 200 people who carry daily.

Most of us shoot in some type of competition, usually IDPA.
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't doubt it when I represented the Sheriff's department as an associate at a big law firm, the Sheriff asked me if I would want to be "deputized" so I could shoot for his department in the state LEO events. I was going to another position so I had to decline but I was pretty much the top dog in the area other than an ATF guy who was about the best there ever was
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Years ago, getting a commission as a special deputy was very easy.

These days is is virtually impossible.

'Course, if the Sheriff really wants to win.......
 
SMTA said:
I shoot with our local Sheriff and his department annually.

No one has yet beaten me.
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Yes, but the comparison wasn't between you and the average cop, it was between the average CCW holder and cops.

Do you understand how averages work?
 
SMTA said:
You fail to understand that folks like me who carry are not cops and don't want to be cops.

My first instinct is to leave a potentially violent situation, not to engage it.

Unless my wife or kids are involved, I have no business getting involved myself.

We all carry to protect ourselves and our families, not anyone or everyone else.

I have been both a cop and now a CCW holder.

I received minimal firearms training as a cop.

I have trained much more as a private citizen who carries.

I probably know well over 200 people who carry daily.

Most of us shoot in some type of competition, usually IDPA.
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lets see, I was a pin GM, a USPSA Class A when that was the top division, and now I am shooting several steel events a month where I generally place in the top 3 of the most competitive division (Production or stock). I also compete in Clays (one of the top in the area) and I shot on the International shotgun circuit for years. I also do GSSF leagues of at least 9 shoots a year. Shooting USPSA, IDPA or Steel puts you under extreme time pressure which is the best training for shooting under pressure. Very few cops do that
 
TurtleDude said:
well your claim has no relevance because it does not explain why cops are more likely to shoot innocent people and miss bad guys than those who have the "easier route" of carrying
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This was already an issue I addressed and you still have not presented the actual data

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-us-navy-yard-w-69-a-20.html#post1062323734

I know the reason since I am a professional in this field. I want you to take a stab at it
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then present the actual data, as opposed to simply asserting some expertise in the area. Because the later is just a waste of time and make it look like you are simply full of empty bluster
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, but the comparison wasn't between you and the average cop, it was between the average CCW holder and cops.

Do you understand how averages work?
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From the several hundred CCW people I know, I am far from the best.

They all are quite diligent, and very good in different scenarios.

I would rather have the average CCW holder protect me than the average cop.

Do you understand how common sense works?
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't doubt it when I represented the Sheriff's department as an associate at a big law firm, the Sheriff asked me if I would want to be "deputized" so I could shoot for his department in the state LEO events. I was going to another position so I had to decline but I was pretty much the top dog in the area other than an ATF guy who was about the best there ever was
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I understand you two want to do your part to keep gun rights protected, but making silly arguments on a message board are not going to accomplish that. You will serve your cause much better if you don't try to intentionally confuse such a simple concept as "averages"
 
TurtleDude said:
lets see, I was a pin GM, a USPSA Class A when that was the top division, and now I am shooting several steel events a month where I generally place in the top 3 of the most competitive division (Production or stock). I also compete in Clays (one of the top in the area) and I shot on the International shotgun circuit for years. I also do GSSF leagues of at least 9 shoots a year. Shooting USPSA, IDPA or Steel puts you under extreme time pressure which is the best training for shooting under pressure. Very few cops do that
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Remind me to not piss you off!
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
This was already an issue I addressed and you still have not presented the actual data

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-us-navy-yard-w-69-a-20.html#post1062323734



then present the actual data, as opposed to simply asserting some expertise in the area. Because the later is just a waste of time and make it look like you are simply full of empty bluster
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I don't come here to satisfy the needs of those who are ignorant of reality. We get the fact that you are anti gun and you think cops are more worthy to carry than the rest of us civilians. You base that on an irrelevant claim that it takes more effort to be a cop than to get a ccw which means nothing in this issue. IF it were relevant, then cops would be better gun handlers than CCW holders They are not and the evidence has been posted on the gun forum dozens of times
 
SMTA said:
From the several hundred CCW people I know, I am far from the best.
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Again, assuming you are being honest, I know CCW holders who haven't fired a gun in years. Hence the problem with relying on your personal anecdotes to establish a trend

Do you understand how common sense works?
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Yes. Are you asking me to tutor you?
 
SMTA said:
You fail to understand that folks like me who carry are not cops and don't want to be cops.

My first instinct is to leave a potentially violent situation, not to engage it.

Unless my wife or kids are involved, I have no business getting involved myself.

We all carry to protect ourselves and our families, not anyone or everyone else.

I have been both a cop and now a CCW holder.

I received minimal firearms training as a cop.

I have trained much more as a private citizen who carries.

I probably know well over 200 people who carry daily.

Most of us shoot in some type of competition, usually IDPA.
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Don't know why you are confronting me. I just countered the ridiculous claim that Μολὼν λαβέ made saying that CCW's would've killed the shooter and ended it before that many people were killed. Seeing how you claim that you wouldn't have engaged, then you seem to agree with me. BTW... I didn't say what you said was untrue. I just said it's hard to believe. Had you credibly linked, I wouldn't have doubted it so.
 
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