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Thread: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Then just explain it to me.



    1) If you mean the stolen guns: No, something accounting for 10-15% of the illegal market does not suggest it can fulfill the demand of that entire market, nor would it suggest that it's comparable in scope to the current legal market. Also, no one suggested an illegal market didn't exist

    2) If you mean the guns that are not stolen:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062331069

    - " the links from you and dittohead paint the issue as mainly being dependent on weak regulations fueling legal, though questionable, transactions. So, again, as an argument that easily accessible black market guns are the consequence of heavy regulation (which was the argument I was addressing) it leaves something to be desired"



    1) So to avert away from the people trying to mindlessly blame guns you want to mindlessly blame video games and medications?

    2) Unfortunately attacking them, their motives, and trying to generate your own diversion issues isn't going to make their arguments go the way of the dodo. You'll need to actually address those arguments. And unfortunately that isn't accomplished by tossing around slogans and making various stupid arguments like "gun laws don't impact availability" and "knives are more deadly than guns".

    All those do is paint the arguer as an idiot and allows him to serve as a useful target for anti-gun right advocates
    Actually...no. I blame the individuals. But as those daily influences are FAR more causative than a weapon, it would be far more logical to focus on those than on weapons.

    Its not a slogan, its a fact. Gun laws do NOT impact availability. Its ALSO a fact that the vast majority of violent crimes in this country are NOT committed in acts of mass shootings. They are committed in the day to day violent acts in cities across the country. Those crimes are committed by people NOT purchasing their guns through legal means. IOW they are NOT the people you would target. Shocking...right?

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Yup, I would be sure to ignore the common thread of mental illness/mental capacity that exists in these incidents.
    1) psychopharmacology =/= mental illness

    2) Suggesting that it's a losing argument to try and scapegoat medications as 'the cause" for these incidents isn't the same as saying you should ignore them


    The key to problem solving is to isolate and identify the absolute root cause while devoid of bias, political opinion and emotion.
    1) I think *your* root cause would unlikely be "devoid of bias, political opinion and emotion".

    2) actually issues tend to be rather complex and not have a"root cause"

    Not nationally, not on DP, and not by you.
    Well, that might be explained by the fact that it isn't something I have ever claimed to be attempting here ...

    What I have done here is address arguments people have made like "knives are more deadly than guns", "the black market is comparable to size and scope to the legal gun market in the US", and "that gun laws do not impact availability or accessibility"

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Actually...no. I blame the individuals. But as those daily influences are FAR more causative than a weapon, it would be far more logical to focus on those than on weapons.
    The type of weapon used clearly impacts the scope and degree of any such crime. So I am still lost on why you feel guns should be ignored in the discussion. Well, besides the obvious one: that you like guns and lack the ability to make an intelligent argument on why that is ok and why you should continue to have access to them.

    Its not a slogan, its a fact. Gun laws do NOT impact availability.
    Indeed they do. In this very incident they impacted the perps ability to have an ar-15, japan is clearly able to restrict it's peoples access to guns through legislation, and in the US, full autos are not readily available in the black market, despite being heavily regulated in the legal one.

    Its ALSO a fact that the vast majority of violent crimes in this country are NOT committed in acts of mass shootings.
    I never said they were, so I am lost on how this addresses anything I wrote

    They are committed in the day to day violent acts in cities across the country. Those crimes are committed by people NOT purchasing their guns through legal means. IOW they are NOT the people you would target. Shocking...right?
    How are you going to determine if they are bought through legal means, when you have posted numerous times about the lax regulations in legal person to person sales?

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Guns used in crimes are mostly not obtained through theft because it is so easy to simply purchase them on the street.
    The sources you have shared here indicate they are easy to purchase on the "street" in legal PtoP transactions due to weak regulation ...

    Passing yet another law restricting gun laws is not going to stop sales in the street. People buying, trading, selling firearms don't follow the law anyway, so how is passing more laws going to make a difference?
    Well, being that your own citations outline a legal secondary market dependent on weak regulation, I would say alot

    All more laws would do would be to restrict the numbers of legal gun owners, the ones who are more likely to use their weapons to protect themselves from the illegal gun owners. That seems to me like a negative shift in firepower.
    Why would additionally laws target what you're referring to "as legal gun owners"? Especially when one of the issues, according to your sources, being shady purchasers
    being able to legally circumnavigate traditional markets.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    If the MSM were not so indebted to Big Pharma for its advertising revenue, the story of psychoactive pharmaceuticals would be all over the papers and TV.

    But it's not. Instead they put out propaganda and misinformation regarding guns.

    We are SO screwed.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    The type of weapon used clearly impacts the scope and degree of any such crime. So I am still lost on why you feel guns should be ignored in the discussion. Well, besides the obvious one: that you like guns and lack the ability to make an intelligent argument on why that is ok and why you should continue to have access to them.



    Indeed they do. In this very incident they impacted the perps ability to have an ar-15, japan is clearly able to restrict it's peoples access to guns through legislation, and in the US, full autos are not readily available in the black market, despite being heavily regulated in the legal one.



    I never said they were, so I am lost on how this addresses anything I wrote



    How are you going to determine if they are bought through legal means, when you have posted numerous times about the lax regulations in legal person to person sales?
    How do you know gun laws impacted his ability to purchase an AR15? He passed a Secret security clearance check and bought the firearm legally. How do you know he didnt prefer the pump shotty? And..we have already discussed Japan and clearly demonstrated that in Japan as in the US, those criminals invested in getting illegal weapons, do. Kinda surprised you went there again. No...wait...Im not. You DO wear the crown.

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    Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its not a slogan, its a fact. Gun laws do NOT impact availability.
    Then why aren't automatic weapons used in any mass shootings?

    (I'm struggling with the fact that some people on these gun threads are either so confused that they can't think logically, or so scared someone is going to take their toys....errr...freedom away that they are self-deluded)
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    If the MSM were not so indebted to Big Pharma for its advertising revenue, the story of psychoactive pharmaceuticals would be all over the papers and TV.

    But it's not. Instead they put out propaganda and misinformation regarding guns.

    We are SO screwed.
    Oh, please. Tell us the story of psychoactive pharmaceuticals and how they relate.

    I'm pretty sure you've got lots of propaganda and misinformation in store for us....
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Then why aren't automatic weapons used in any mass shootings?

    (I'm struggling with the fact that some people on these gun threads are either so confused that they can't think logically, or so scared someone is going to take their toys....errr...freedom away that they are self-deluded)
    First off...from a strictly efficiency standpoint an automatic weapon would make a terrible assault weapon. Ever fired one? Horribly inaccurate and inefficient strike ratios. Most people begin firing with a sight reasonably on target and by the 2nd round fired they are up, left, and firing into the sky. Second...considering this most recent shooter used a shotgun and handguns quite efficiently, they are obviously a superior choice. Holmes found that out in Aurora Colorado as his AR type weapon jammed shortly into the magazine and he switched to...yep...you guessed it...shotgun and handgun. Cho at VA Tech demonstrated the efficiency of a Glock handgun...again...who needs a stinkin overrated machine gun?

    Im struck by the mindless ****heads that feel the need every time there is a tragic event to decide to reinvigorate their attacks on private ownership of weapons. Im stunned that those same mindless ****heads ignore the FACT that background checks were used in DC, Conn, Col, Az, Va, etc...and yet the first thing they do is clamor for new laws re background checks. Im AMAZED that those same ****heads strike up the fight against ARs even when they arent used (that point was driven home by the NYPD Police Chief after NY passed their moronic anti gun legislation when he pointed out only THREE of THIRTEEN HUNDRED rounds used in violent crimes in NYC could be attributed to a rifle of ANY KIND, let alone an 'assault rifle").

    SO...I guess we are both 'struggling' a bit....arent we.

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    Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    First off...from a strictly efficiency standpoint an automatic weapon would make a terrible assault weapon. Ever fired one? Horribly inaccurate and inefficient strike ratios. Most people begin firing with a sight reasonably on target and by the 2nd round fired they are up, left, and firing into the sky. Second...considering this most recent shooter used a shotgun and handguns quite efficiently, they are obviously a superior choice. Holmes found that out in Aurora Colorado as his AR type weapon jammed shortly into the magazine and he switched to...yep...you guessed it...shotgun and handgun. Cho at VA Tech demonstrated the efficiency of a Glock handgun...again...who needs a stinkin overrated machine gun?

    Im struck by the mindless ****heads that feel the need every time there is a tragic event to decide to reinvigorate their attacks on private ownership of weapons. Im stunned that those same mindless ****heads ignore the FACT that background checks were used in DC, Conn, Col, Az, Va, etc...and yet the first thing they do is clamor for new laws re background checks. Im AMAZED that those same ****heads strike up the fight against ARs even when they arent used (that point was driven home by the NYPD Police Chief after NY passed their moronic anti gun legislation when he pointed out only THREE of THIRTEEN HUNDRED rounds used in violent crimes in NYC could be attributed to a rifle of ANY KIND, let alone an 'assault rifle").

    SO...I guess we are both 'struggling' a bit....arent we.
    I love when you make a logical argument about laws and gun availability and I get a thesis about the merits of toys.

    Please let the military know that automatic weapons are inefficient in mass slaughter. Somehow, every army in the world is missing this point.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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