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Thread: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Given the vast difference in the numbers between the two, it is logical.
    -The argument addressed by his post was why if regulation has no impact on availability, why do we not have an issue with SAM's.

    -To address this he pointed to limited availability and "all of them are in the hands of the military"

    -the problems with that is 1) "all of them are in the hands of the military" would be a consequence of regulation and 2) that isn't even true, unl;ess you use a very loose definition of military which amounts to "an organized group of individuals with arms"

    So yes, logically it's a circular argument and a poor one at that

    The only silliness is your dismissal of the logic.
    You might need to look up the word "dismissal". Being that directly addressing the argument and pointing out it's logical inconsistencies is would be "serious consideration". Not giving it "serious consideration and "dismissing" it. Would be rejecting the argument without pointing to it's logical inconsistencies and not directly addressing it

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Would you like to continue to pretend there isnt an extensive black market or just accept that you know nothing about it?
    As extensive as been suggested here? I have seen no evidence for it. And to prove it's existence, people have cited weak regulations fueling a robust, but legal, second hand market.

    In a discussion about an illegal gun market, where illegal acquisition occurs in response to robust gun control measures, it doesn't pass the smell test. In fact, it does the exact opposite

    Now tell me, Vance, how do you expect to protect and further gun rights when you're making such a stupid ****ing arguments? As a gun owner and supporter of gun rights, I ask you to but out of this discussion (not just here, but nationally). You only hurt our interests

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    As extensive as been suggested here? I have seen no evidence for it. And to prove it's existence, people have cited weak regulations fueling a robust, but legal, second hand market.

    In a discussion about an illegal gun market, where illegal acquisition occurs in response to robust gun control measures, it doesn't pass the smell test. In fact, it does the exact opposite

    Now tell me, Vance, how do you expect to protect and further gun rights when you're making such a stupid ****ing arguments? As a gun owner and supporter of gun rights, I ask you to but out of this discussion (not just here, but nationally). You only hurt our interests
    ...well...you certainly nail the 'tard' part. Thats a pretty pathetic response even for you. You were given an article from PBS that showed the percentages of illegal guns accounted for by theft (10-15%). You were given citation from experts that show that black markets exist and are in fact robust. You readily admit you arent smart enough to a-understand those facts and b-figure **** out on your own. So you then rely on the time honored though full-retard position of 'un uh!'. You ignore the undeniable fact that there ARE in fact a large number of illegal guns out there in the hands of violent thugs, indicating THEY are at least smarter than YOU when it comes to getting their hands on the weapons.

    There ARE gun laws in place to restrict those illegal weapons sales. Passing more gun laws will do...what exactly? Make it double secret probation kinda tough? background checks are already in place for all FFL sales, yet THEY arent doing anything to stop a-mass shootings (see DC, Conn, Co, Az, Va) or b-violent criminal possession of firearms. AR15s werent used...there goes the semi auto weapons and assault rifle ban laws for a while.

    Novel thought...stop making the discussion about guns and gun bans. Start focusing on those that commit violent crimes. Try taking off the crown for a while.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    ...well...you certainly nail the 'tard' part. Thats a pretty pathetic response even for you. You were given an article from PBS that showed the percentages of illegal guns accounted for by theft (10-15%). You were given citation from experts that show that black markets exist and are in fact robust. You readily admit you arent smart enough to a-understand those facts and b-figure **** out on your own. So you then rely on the time honored though full-retard position of 'un uh!'. You ignore the undeniable fact that there ARE in fact a large number of illegal guns out there in the hands of violent thugs, indicating THEY are at least smarter than YOU when it comes to getting their hands on the weapons.

    There ARE gun laws in place to restrict those illegal weapons sales. Passing more gun laws will do...what exactly? Make it double secret probation kinda tough? background checks are already in place for all FFL sales, yet THEY arent doing anything to stop a-mass shootings (see DC, Conn, Co, Az, Va) or b-violent criminal possession of firearms. AR15s werent used...there goes the semi auto weapons and assault rifle ban laws for a while.

    Novel thought...stop making the discussion about guns and gun bans. Start focusing on those that commit violent crimes. Try taking off the crown for a while.
    More like a stick, if you get my drift.
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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    ...well...you certainly nail the 'tard' part. Thats a pretty pathetic response even for you. You were given an article from PBS that showed the percentages of illegal guns accounted for by theft (10-15%).
    I asked when this was first posted by dittohead, but how does that figure support your argument?


    You were given citation from experts that show that black markets exist and are in fact robust.
    1) No one denied that people can buy guns illegally, what was challenged was how large and accessible those markets are.

    2) And no, nothing you posted shows they are as large and accessible as was claimed. In fact, what was shown was a very easily accessible legal market that serves as an outlet for those unable to purchase guns in more traditional ways


    "So you then rely on the time honored though full-retard position of 'un uh!'. "

    You just quoted a semi-lengthy response that directly addresses your argument ...


    There ARE gun laws in place to restrict those illegal weapons sales.
    The material supplied by you and others made clear they were legal markets with legal transactions


    Passing more gun laws will do...what exactly?
    restrict access and ownership. But being against that doesn't create a requirement that you ignore simple and obvious facts


    background checks are already in place for all FFL sales, yet THEY arent doing anything to stop a-mass shootings
    You've been posting material talking about the issues with *legal* gun sales that require no background check ...


    AR15s werent used...there goes the semi auto weapons and assault rifle ban laws for a while.
    Where did I mention assault rifles? Going into an unrelated tirade does nothing to address the points we are discussing, and just further underlines my point about you being a poor advocate.


    Novel thought...stop making the discussion about guns and gun bans. Start focusing on those that commit violent crimes. Try taking off the crown for a while.
    Unfortunately the crime involved guns. So the discussion is going to be inevitably about guns, to some degree

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I asked when this was first posted by dittohead, but how does that figure support your argument?




    1) No one denied that people can buy guns illegally, what was challenged was how large and accessible those markets are.

    2) And no, nothing you posted shows they are as large and accessible as was claimed. In fact, what was shown was a very easily accessible legal market that serves as an outlet for those unable to purchase guns in more traditional ways


    "So you then rely on the time honored though full-retard position of 'un uh!'. "

    You just quoted a semi-lengthy response that directly addresses your argument ...




    The material supplied by you and others made clear they were legal markets with legal transactions




    restrict access and ownership. But being against that doesn't create a requirement that you ignore simple and obvious facts




    You've been posting material talking about the issues with *legal* gun sales that require no background check ...




    Where did I mention assault rifles? Going into an unrelated tirade does nothing to address the points we are discussing, and just further underlines my point about you being a poor advocate.




    Unfortunately the crime involved guns. So the discussion is going to be inevitably about guns, to some degree
    Its not shocking I suppose that you cant/wont see the relevance of the fact that 85-90% of the firearms are obtained by means NOT involving theft. And THAT those weapons ARE IN FACT being secured and used illgeally, that also testifies to the scope of the trade AND the availability. Again...I get it...you dont get it.

    People WANT to make these tragic event s be about the guns because of their agenda. Why not making it be about psychopharmacology...the common theme in DC, Conn, Co, Az, Va? Why not make it be about violent video games...another common theme? Oh...thats right...because its not ABOUT cause...its about agenda. Use tragedy to further a mindless agenda against firearms. Promote laws/bans against firearms that will target private law abiding citizens and CONTINUE to ignore the vast majority of violent crime and perpetrators. So what if it does nothing to prevent victims or tragedies...at least you can propose more laws.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its not shocking I suppose that you cant/wont see the relevance of the fact that 85-90% of the firearms are obtained by means NOT involving theft.
    Then just explain it to me.

    And THAT those weapons ARE IN FACT being secured and used illgeally, that also testifies to the scope of the trade AND the availability. Again...I get it...you dont get it.
    1) If you mean the stolen guns: No, something accounting for 10-15% of the illegal market does not suggest it can fulfill the demand of that entire market, nor would it suggest that it's comparable in scope to the current legal market. Also, no one suggested an illegal market didn't exist

    2) If you mean the guns that are not stolen:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062331069

    - " the links from you and dittohead paint the issue as mainly being dependent on weak regulations fueling legal, though questionable, transactions. So, again, as an argument that easily accessible black market guns are the consequence of heavy regulation (which was the argument I was addressing) it leaves something to be desired"

    People WANT to make these tragic event s be about the guns because of their agenda. Why not making it be about psychopharmacology...the common theme in DC, Conn, Co, Az, Va? Why not make it be about violent video games...another common theme? Oh...thats right...because its not ABOUT cause...its about agenda. Use tragedy to further a mindless agenda against firearms. Promote laws/bans against firearms that will target private law abiding citizens and CONTINUE to ignore the vast majority of violent crime and perpetrators. So what if it does nothing to prevent victims or tragedies...at least you can propose more laws.
    1) So to avert away from the people trying to mindlessly blame guns you want to mindlessly blame video games and medications?

    2) Unfortunately attacking them, their motives, and trying to generate your own diversion issues isn't going to make their arguments go the way of the dodo. You'll need to actually address those arguments. And unfortunately that isn't accomplished by tossing around slogans and making various stupid arguments like "gun laws don't impact availability" and "knives are more deadly than guns".

    All those do is paint the arguer as an idiot and allows him to serve as a useful target for anti-gun right advocates

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    It saddens and amazes me what every shooting devolves into nowdays in this non-thinking world we live in.

    This isn't about an inanimate object.

    Are drugs to blame for drug users? Are children to blame for child molesters? Are playing cards to blame for gambling addiction?

    Mass murderers will always get their hands on guns if they want. The OKC bomber used fertilizer. The Boston Marathon killers used nails and kitchen tools. The 9/11 terrorists used airplanes.

    The gun argument is just stupid. 99.99999999999999 percent of guns are not used to kill people. In fact, the vast majority are used to PREVENT people from using guns to kill people.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Its not shocking I suppose that you cant/wont see the relevance of the fact that 85-90% of the firearms are obtained by means NOT involving theft. And THAT those weapons ARE IN FACT being secured and used illgeally, that also testifies to the scope of the trade AND the availability. Again...I get it...you dont get it.

    People WANT to make these tragic event s be about the guns because of their agenda. Why not making it be about psychopharmacology...the common theme in DC, Conn, Co, Az, Va? Why not make it be about violent video games...another common theme? Oh...thats right...because its not ABOUT cause...its about agenda. Use tragedy to further a mindless agenda against firearms. Promote laws/bans against firearms that will target private law abiding citizens and CONTINUE to ignore the vast majority of violent crime and perpetrators. So what if it does nothing to prevent victims or tragedies...at least you can propose more laws.
    Guns used in crimes are mostly not obtained through theft because it is so easy to simply purchase them on the street.

    Passing yet another law restricting gun laws is not going to stop sales in the street. People buying, trading, selling firearms don't follow the law anyway, so how is passing more laws going to make a difference?

    All more laws would do would be to restrict the numbers of legal gun owners, the ones who are more likely to use their weapons to protect themselves from the illegal gun owners. That seems to me like a negative shift in firepower.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I asked when this was first posted by dittohead, but how does that figure support your argument?




    1) No one denied that people can buy guns illegally, what was challenged was how large and accessible those markets are.

    2) And no, nothing you posted shows they are as large and accessible as was claimed. In fact, what was shown was a very easily accessible legal market that serves as an outlet for those unable to purchase guns in more traditional ways


    "So you then rely on the time honored though full-retard position of 'un uh!'. "

    You just quoted a semi-lengthy response that directly addresses your argument ...




    The material supplied by you and others made clear they were legal markets with legal transactions




    restrict access and ownership. But being against that doesn't create a requirement that you ignore simple and obvious facts




    You've been posting material talking about the issues with *legal* gun sales that require no background check ...




    Where did I mention assault rifles? Going into an unrelated tirade does nothing to address the points we are discussing, and just further underlines my point about you being a poor advocate.




    Unfortunately the crime involved guns. So the discussion is going to be inevitably about guns, to some degree
    Yup, I would be sure to ignore the common thread of mental illness/mental capacity that exists in these incidents.

    The key to problem solving is to isolate and identify the absolute root cause while devoid of bias, political opinion and emotion.

    I have not seen that happen on any level.

    Not nationally, not on DP, and not by you.
    Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher
    Baby sister, I was born game and I intend to go out that way - Rooster Cogburn

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