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Thread: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The black market...
    Mexican marines seize 900 guns
    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...63.e7LC_T6l-JA

    And ANYONE that buys guns at a gunshow with the intent to sell to criminals would absolutely be considered a part of the black market.
    1) So you cite a news article about guns in mexico to make a point about the illegal availability of guns in the US?

    2) The market cited above, as the article makes clear, is the byproduct of loose gun regulations and the transactions are done completely within the law. So I fail to see how it constitutes a black market and serves as an argument against further regulation.

    Maybe explain it to me

    3) I'm not sure what purpose the picture is suppose to serve. Being that it was a general search on confiscated guns and includes pictures from outside the US, and no one argued that a black market doesn't exist, only that it isn't as accessible as some are claiming

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Status queue? It makes sense because anyone who wants to get a gun can get one.
    lol, the market is a by product of loose regulation and is legal. So no, it does not serve as evidence that black market guns are easily accessible and regulation will not change that

    Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

    In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list.
    What is this suppose to address?

    Your second link is an advocacy site that doesn't even reference it's sources. And on top of that, it just mainly highlights the issue of loose regulation. loose legal transactions are not a black market, especially in the context of this discussion

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    1) So you cite a news article about guns in mexico to make a point about the illegal availability of guns in the US?

    2) The market cited above, as the article makes clear, is the byproduct of loose gun regulations and the transactions are done completely within the law. So I fail to see how it constitutes a black market and serves as an argument against further regulation.

    Maybe explain it to me

    3) I'm not sure what purpose the picture is suppose to serve. Being that it was a general search on confiscated guns and includes pictures from outside the US, and no one argued that a black market doesn't exist, only that it isn't as accessible as some are claiming
    do you believe with a porous border that has allowed approx 20-30 million ILLEGALS at any given time and a booming drug trade that somehow illegal guns ARENT part of that equation?
    There is one absolute and undeniable fact that you seem to want to ignore. All those violent criminals in the US are NOT going to Bobs Gun store, presenting ID, passing a background check, and then becoming violent thugs. theya re getting their guns ILLEGALLY and ANY purchase made ilegally would be considered a part of the black market trade. Perhaps you have missed it, but there are more than few armed gangs and assorted violent thugs out there.

    So...you REALLY dont think there is a guns black market in the US?
    "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    lol, the market is a by product of loose regulation and is legal. So no, it does not serve as evidence that black market guns are easily accessible and regulation will not change that



    What is this suppose to address?

    Your second link is an advocacy site that doesn't even reference it's sources. And on top of that, it just mainly highlights the issue of loose regulation. loose legal transactions are not a black market, especially in the context of this discussion
    So, you really don't think criminals can get guns in the USA?

    or that tighter regulations could actually keep them from getting them?

    You're trying hard, but you've taken a position that just isn't tenable.

    OK, one more source for you to poo poo:
    LIMA - At a shooting inside a Lima bar earlier this month that injured four, police found an expensive handgun.

    Officers traced the gun to a burglary in American Township in the past year. The two men charged in connection with the shooting at Marko's bar on South Main Street were unable to legally have a gun because of their criminal backgrounds.

    So how did the two men, Michael G. Thompson, 19, and Dominique K. Durr, 22, be charged with illegally having a gun in a place that sells alcohol? Police were still trying to determine who fired the shots inside the bar. Another big question is where do people involved in gun crimes get guns?

    Criminals do not go into the local sporting goods store or gun shop to buy guns. The law prohibits anyone convicted of a felony from buying or owning a gun. Criminals also do not follow the law and the "no guns" signs posted on both doors to enter Marko's did nothing to stop those who brought guns in that night.

    "If a criminal wants a gun, they can't go and buy it because they have a criminal record. They are going to buy it off an individual or they are going to trade for it," said Chief Deputy Jimmy Everett, of the Allen County Sheriff's Office.
    Now, your turn: How do you suggest that we stop criminals from getting guns?
    or do you seriously believe that they can't get guns now?
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    Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Technically, no, it's not as it is perfectly legal. It does, however, show how easy it is to buy a gun without any background check or any sort of oversight.

    Gun control laws, like drug laws, simply can't be enforced.
    I was with you up to the last sentence.

    Do you think SAMs are not available in the US because of lack of demand? I'm pretty sure the laws play a major role...
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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    do you believe with a porous border that has allowed approx 20-30 million ILLEGALS at any given time and a booming drug trade that somehow illegal guns ARENT part of that equation?
    Yes, flowing into mexico from the US. Secondly, guns do not behave the same way as drugs in a market


    There is one absolute and undeniable fact that you seem to want to ignore. All those violent criminals in the US are NOT going to Bobs Gun store, presenting ID, passing a background check, and then becoming violent thugs. theya re getting their guns ILLEGALLY and ANY purchase made ilegally would be considered a part of the black market trade. Perhaps you have missed it, but there are more than few armed gangs and assorted violent thugs out there.
    1) Actually, this has no relation to my argument. Which was not that an illegal trade doesn't exist, but that it isn't as robust and easily accessible as some are stating here

    2) the links from you and dittohead paint the issue as mainly being dependent on weak regulations fueling legal, though questionable, transactions. So, again, as an argument that easily accessible black market guns are the consequence of heavy regulation (which was the argument I was addressing) it leaves something to be desired

    So...you REALLY dont think there is a guns black market in the US?
    No, I was very clear in what I wrote, and that was obviously not it. Reread and get back to me:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062330689

    Notice nowhere do I claim a black market "Does not exist". But that it isn't as accessible and as well stocked as some claim

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Yes, flowing into mexico from the US. Secondly, guns do not behave the same way as drugs in a market




    1) Actually, this has no relation to my argument. Which was not that an illegal trade doesn't exist, but that it isn't as robust and easily accessible as some are stating here

    2) the links from you and dittohead paint the issue as mainly being dependent on weak regulations fueling legal, though questionable, transactions. So, again, as an argument that easily accessible black market guns are the consequence of heavy regulation (which was the argument I was addressing) it leaves something to be desired



    No, I was very clear in what I wrote, and that was obviously not it. Reread and get back to me:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062330689

    Notice nowhere do I claim a black market "Does not exist". But that it isn't as accessible and as well stocked as some claim
    The PBS article easily refutes your 'opinion' that the illegal gun trade is not robust. It also shows that it accounts for 85-90% of the illegal guns used by violent criminals in the US. Now...feel free to do with that what you will.

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So, you really don't think criminals can get guns in the USA?
    lol, no, I was rather clear in what I wrote.

    or that tighter regulations could actually keep them from getting them?
    Part of what makes this exchange so laughable is that the very sources you are citing allude to and suggest that tighter regulations would help limit the access criminals have to guns. If you want to take the absurdest position that regulation needs to prevent criminals from ever getting guns, that is on you. But it's an argument that makes no sense and feel no need to address it

    Now, your turn: How do you suggest that we stop criminals from getting guns?
    or do you seriously believe that they can't get guns now?
    Who said anything about criminals never being able to get guns? My argument concerned limited access and your own links suggest theft accounts for a small part of criminal acquisition of firearms (10-15%)

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The PBS article easily refutes your 'opinion' that the illegal gun trade is not robust. It also shows that it accounts for 85-90% of the illegal guns used by violent criminals in the US. Now...feel free to do with that what you will.
    It does? Can you quote the relevant material

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    re: Active gunmen in US navy Yard [W:69, 700]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    It does? Can you quote the relevant material
    I posted a quote, I gave you the article. Try reading. OR...in lieu of that lets just accept this as a fact. YOU may be clueless how to obtain illegal firearms. OBVIOUSLY...violent criminals...they got it knocked.

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