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Thread: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

  1. #41
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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    What you're arguing is not libertarianism, freedom, or capitalism. You may be the only self-proclaimed "libertarian" who likes to argue on the side of perceived fairness and idealism.

    You are not pragmatic by any stretch.
    /snort. And how so? I'm well aware that bigots have adopted libertarian positions as an attempt to provide reasonable cover for the ability to discriminate. As far as I am aware, pretty much all libertarians do not enjoy such associations and are favorable to the Civil Rights Acts and other historical anti-discrimination policies.

    "Yet that’s precisely why Paul’s 1.0 argument breaks down on its own terms: at the scene of a four-century crime against humanity — the kidnap, torture, enslavement, and legal oppression of African-Americans — ideal theory fails. We libertarians, never burdened with an excess of governing power, have always had a utopian streak, a penchant for imagining what rich organic order would bubble up from the choices of free and equal citizens governed by a lean state enforcing a few simple rules. We tend to envision societies that, if not perfect, are at least consistently libertarian.

    Unfortunately, history happened. Rules for utopia can deal with individual crimes — the mugger and the killer and the vandal — but they stumble in the face of societywide injustice. They tell us the state shouldn’t sanction the brutal enslavement or humiliating legal subordination of a people; they have less to say about what to do once we have. They tell us to respect the sanctity of the property rights that would arise as free people tamed the wilderness in John Locke’s state of nature. They have less to say about the sanctity of property built on generations of slave sweat and blood.
    "

    Why Rand Paul Is Right ... and Wrong | Cato Institute
    Last edited by brothern; 09-11-13 at 01:41 PM.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I was talking about gays being married. What are you talking about?
    Oh, I was speaking commerce.

    As far as marriage, I personally don't have a problem with gays getting married. I'd be a lot more adamant about it if I thought that marriage was a right. At that point, it'd be an equal rights issue. However, I see it as an issue of privilege.

    I'd support gays getting married if it led to the eventual abolition of the marriage between the state and the institution itself.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Oh, I was speaking commerce.

    As far as marriage, I personally don't have a problem with gays getting married. I'd be a lot more adamant about it if I thought that marriage was a right. At that point, it'd be an equal rights issue. However, I see it as an issue of privilege.

    I'd support gays getting married if it led to the eventual abolition of the marriage between the state and the institution itself.
    You and I have been around the block on marriage and the state and I don't feel like there's any "there" there. As to commerce, that's a fuzzy area that I've never quite been able to wrap my own head around. On one hand you can't make me believe it's okay for there to be black and white only movie establishments, but you can't make me be okay with doing business with, say, a white supremacist. If you want to be really confused, come to L.A. and see how pretty much every business has a "We reserve the right not to do business with anyone" sign behind practically every register, and then understand that none of them are on any kind of solid legal ground.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    /snort. And how so? I'm well aware that bigots have adopted libertarian positions as reasonable cover to discriminate.

    "Yet that’s precisely why Paul’s 1.0 argument breaks down on its own terms: at the scene of a four-century crime against humanity — the kidnap, torture, enslavement, and legal oppression of African-Americans — ideal theory fails. We libertarians, never burdened with an excess of governing power, have always had a utopian streak, a penchant for imagining what rich organic order would bubble up from the choices of free and equal citizens governed by a lean state enforcing a few simple rules. We tend to envision societies that, if not perfect, are at least consistently libertarian.

    Unfortunately, history happened. Rules for utopia can deal with individual crimes — the mugger and the killer and the vandal — but they stumble in the face of societywide injustice. They tell us the state shouldn’t sanction the brutal enslavement or humiliating legal subordination of a people; they have less to say about what to do once we have. They tell us to respect the sanctity of the property rights that would arise as free people tamed the wilderness in John Locke’s state of nature. They have less to say about the sanctity of property built on generations of slave sweat and blood.
    "

    Why Rand Paul Is Right ... and Wrong | Cato Institute
    It has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry. It's about the fact that libertarianism is the most humanistic political philosophy out there - and humans can indeed be bigoted.

    If you have no problem with gays, then do business with them, associate with them, and defend their rights. However, since I do not view marriage as a right, I will never do this. Now if the state wanted to prevent gays from voting, owning property, and avoiding persecution I'd be all up in arms. It's not that though.

    I will never support any legislation that's designed to enslave someone and prevent their basic freedoms. I will not compromise an Orwellian future so that all things are "fair" and people's feelings are tantamount.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    You and I have been around the block on marriage and the state and I don't feel like there's any "there" there. As to commerce, that's a fuzzy area that I've never quite been able to wrap my own head around. On one hand you can't make me believe it's okay for there to be black and white only movie establishments, but you can't make me be okay with doing business with, say, a white supremacist. If you want to be really confused, come to L.A. and see how pretty much every business has a "We reserve the right not to do business with anyone" sign behind practically every register, and then understand that none of them are on any kind of solid legal ground.
    Right, and it basically stems from my belief that marriage is not a right. If I thought it was, we'd probably be in agreement.

    If a business owner wanted to do the segregated business, he should have that right. I doubt he'd stay open though. Eventually people will socially evolve beyond these things - and without the help of the state. You shouldn't have to do business with a white supremacist. As a business owner, you should have that right.

    I support "we reserve the right" wholeheartedly. If I went into some restaurant in Miami and a Mexican guy shooed me out the door, mumbling "pendejo blanco", that's fine - some other place down the street will be more than happy to take my money. See, eventually people like that will get phased out - as well they should.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Right, and it basically stems from my belief that marriage is not a right. If I thought it was, we'd probably be in agreement.

    If a business owner wanted to do the segregated business, he should have that right. I doubt he'd stay open though. Eventually people will socially evolve beyond these things - and without the help of the state. You shouldn't have to do business with a white supremacist. As a business owner, you should have that right.

    I support "we reserve the right" wholeheartedly. If I went into some restaurant in Miami and a Mexican guy shooed me out the door, mumbling "pendejo blanco", that's fine - some other place down the street will be more than happy to take my money. See, eventually people like that will get phased out - as well they should.
    Depends on where the business is. If the establishment is in L.A. the Mexican will stay in business. If a white supremacist runs a "whites only" store in, say, Idaho, he'll stay in business. It's all very well and good until minorities find themselves edged out of the majority of businesses through no fault of their own (being black, Jewish, gay, etc.), that's where you run into a problem.

    Using a white supremacist probably wasn't the swiftest choice on my part seeing as the white supremacist technically has a choice in what he is (upbringing notwithstanding).

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Depends on where the business is. If the establishment is in L.A. the Mexican will stay in business. If a white supremacist runs a "whites only" store in, say, Idaho, he'll stay in business. It's all very well and good until minorities find themselves edged out of the majority of businesses through no fault of their own (being black, Jewish, gay, etc.), that's where you run into a problem.

    Using a white supremacist probably wasn't the swiftest choice on my part seeing as the white supremacist technically has a choice in what he is (upbringing notwithstanding).
    I guess it just doesn't bother me. Frankly they need places like that. If I wasn't bilingual, I'd probably hang out a sign that says "speak English or get out" (in Spanish) in the window of my establishment. Therefore I can't fault Jose for not wanting to serve the gringo devil.

    It just takes more for me to endorse additional legislature beyond someone's feelings. Life isn't fair. Often, people suck. And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round. Learn to deal.

    Seems easy enough.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Depends on where the business is. If the establishment is in L.A. the Mexican will stay in business. If a white supremacist runs a "whites only" store in, say, Idaho, he'll stay in business. It's all very well and good until minorities find themselves edged out of the majority of businesses through no fault of their own (being black, Jewish, gay, etc.), that's where you run into a problem.

    Using a white supremacist probably wasn't the swiftest choice on my part seeing as the white supremacist technically has a choice in what he is (upbringing notwithstanding).
    yeprights need protected period.

    just seems way to convenient, dishonest and hypocritical to me. Must be nice for certain people to just ignore rights cause they dont think they are rights. What a joke.
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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Hardly. I was just mocking people who want to give Washington absolute power.

    It's bad enough that America dictates the morality of other nations. I'd rather them not do it to their own.
    Ridiculous absolutism.

    You don't want to give Washington absolute power? Why do you support dissolving the US as a political entity?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Minneapolis Courts Chicago's Same-Sex Couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Ridiculous absolutism.

    You don't want to give Washington absolute power? Why do you support dissolving the US as a political entity?
    Whew. I'm glad you don't counter my "ridiculous absolutism" with hyperbole of your own.

    Dodged that bullet.

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