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On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

Juanita said:
No, you are playing the "might" game--if you do this, that "might" happen....nothing to do with your nasty toenails either.... We all have emotional bonds and you are trying to make it seem that everyone with emotional bonds are going to try to get married... What a ridiculous notion... Do you really want to marry your mother, your father, your aunt or uncle, your brother or your son or daughter? What a waste of brain cells...
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Oh really? Kool-Aid drinkers have a hard time grasping reality.

It's not a ridiculous notion for starters. Within the last 18 months an ivy league professor of law confessed to a consensual incest relationship with his adult daughter. His name is Epstein and not only is he a law professor at Columbia but he is a big contributor to the Huffington Post, one of the left's favorite places to pick up the news spin to their liking.
In defending his relationship.....

“It’s OK for homosexuals to do what they want at home, so how is this different?”

A respected professor at one of the nation’s leading Ivy League universities is defending his incestuous relationship with his daughter, as reported by the official newspaper of the Dallas Fort Worth Catholic Archdiocese.

Columbia University’s Professor David Epstein was charged with one count of incest for what was allegedly a consensual three-year sexual relationship with his 24-year-old daughter.

The 46-year-old political science professor who specializes in American politics and voting rights allegedly had a long-term sexual relations with his own child from 2006 until 2009.

Adding to the creepy factor, Epstein reportedly “exchanged twisted text messages” with his daughter during their sexual relationship.

Enter the Lawyer…

Defending the teacher of American youth is Matthew Galluzzo, who has said that even though his client’s daughter had emerged as a victim in the case, she could “best be described as an accomplice.”

Galluzzo went on to declare:


At the same time, there is an argument to be made in the Swiss case to let go what goes on privately in bedrooms. ’It’s OK for homosexuals to do whatever they want in their own home. How is this so different?
Claiming that the charges against his client are “unwarranted and unfair,” Galluzzo gave an impassioned defense of incest:


What goes on between consenting adults in private should not be legislated. That is not the proper domain of our law.

If we assume for a moment that both parties [involved in incest] are consenting, then why are we prosecuting this?

Galluzzo’s reference to Switzerland relates to a proposal by Swiss legislators to decriminalize consensual sexual relationships between first-degree relatives, including siblings and parents and their adult children.

Consensual incest is legal in China, France, Israel, the Ivory Coast, the Netherlands, Russia, Spain and Turkey, according to a 2007 report from the Max Planck Institute in Germany.
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Those who practice incest are already asking the same question homosexuals did in their quest for so called "civil rights". And while the definition of marriage is being redefined by some, the door is open wide for others to use the same arguments to seek their "civil rights". To think that incest laws will never change in this country is ignorant to say the least. It's happening all over the world, so it can happen here too.
Lawyer defends incest-charged client: Columbia University professor | Liberty Unyielding
 
Vesper you are way off topic. Your point has been made. If incest, and or this case, and or how it relates to gay marriage is what you want to talk about start a new thread.
 
winston53660 said:
Vesper you are way off topic. Your point has been made. If incest, and or this case, and or how it relates to gay marriage is what you want to talk about start a new thread.
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No I am not off topic. To point out how changing the definintion of marriage can affect things in the future is fair game. After all the topic is Gay Marriage, and how the house may not stay divided long. To point out WHY the house will remain divided is perfectly within my right.
:kissass
 
vesper said:
No I am not off topic. To point out how changing the definintion of marriage can affect things in the future is fair game. After all the topic is Gay Marriage, and how the house may not stay divided long. To point out WHY the house will remain divided is perfectly within my right.
:kissass
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The OP is about tax laws not incest.
 
winston53660 said:
The OP is about tax laws not incest.
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:bs
I certainly haven't read many of your posts directly related to tax laws in this thread. On the contrary. Most of mine have been related to the consequences of changing laws. And because of the LAWS being passed thanks to same sex marriage advocates like yourself, have consequences. Pointing out legalization of incestuous relationships is one such consequence because they could legitimately use the same arguments gays have to obtain their new found rights.
 
Vesper, I see your point, but SSM is what we are discussing... Incest relationships are sick and damage the whole family, so start another thread..It is apples and oranges as far as I am concerned..
 
vesper said:
:bs
I certainly haven't read many of your posts directly related to tax laws in this thread. On the contrary. Most of mine have been related to the consequences of changing laws. And because of the LAWS being passed thanks to same sex marriage advocates like yourself, have consequences. Pointing out legalization of incestuous relationships is one such consequence because they could legitimately use the same arguments gays have to obtain their new found rights.
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And the likelihood of incest becoming legal?
 
winston53660 said:
And the likelihood of incest becoming legal?
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Consensual incest is legal in China, France, Israel, the Ivory Coast, the Netherlands, Russia, Spain and Turkey, according to a 2007 report from the Max Planck Institute in Germany. Switzerland is attempting to abolish their incest laws. Here in the U.S. the loosening of the laws has already been occurring. Today almost half of the states allow marriage to 1st cousins while lowering the penalties for violations of other incest relationships. So the threat is very real. You might not see it in your lifetime but your grandchildren may very well. I didn't think I'd see same sex marriage a real threat in my lifetime either, but here we are........and the way those who do not find incest to be wrong, will achieve their rights the same way same sex marriage are obtaining theirs. Same arguments...same everything.
 
vesper said:
Consensual incest is legal in China, France, Israel, the Ivory Coast, the Netherlands, Russia, Spain and Turkey, according to a 2007 report from the Max Planck Institute in Germany. Switzerland is attempting to abolish their incest laws. Here in the U.S. the loosening of the laws has already been occurring. Today almost half of the states allow marriage to 1st cousins while lowering the penalties for violations of other incest relationships. So the threat is very real. You might not see it in your lifetime but your grandchildren may very well. I didn't think I'd see same sex marriage a real threat in my lifetime either, but here we are........and the way those who do not find incest to be wrong, will achieve their rights the same way same sex marriage are obtaining theirs. Same arguments...same everything.
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If any of this was legal before gay marriage how is this a consequence of gay marriage?

For example cousin marriage

These developments led to 13 states and territories passing cousin marriage prohibitions by the 1880s. Though contemporaneous, the eugenics movement did not play much of a direct role in the bans, and indeed George Louis Arner in 1908 considered the ban a clumsy and ineffective method of eugenics, which he thought would eventually be replaced by more refined techniques. Ottenheimer considers both the bans and eugenics to be "one of several reactions to the fear that American society might degenerate".[22] In any case, by the period up until the mid-1920s the number of bans had more than doubled.[7] Since that time, the only three states to add this prohibition have been Kentucky in 1943, Maine in 1985, and Texas in 2005. The NCCUSL unanimously recommended in 1970 that all such laws should be repealed, but no state has dropped its prohibition since the mid-1920s.[3][9][23]

If anything the ban on cousin marriage in Texas came in after gay marriage was recognized in Massachusetts in 2004

BTW check the Plank institute for incest and got this

Search

Here's the wiki on it

Germany[edit source | editbeta]
In Germany, incest is punishable by law if consummated between people related by blood in direct line only, therefore between parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren plus among siblings and half siblings. The penalty is a fine or up to 3 years of prison. Incest between relatives who are minors (below 18 years old) at the time of offence is not punishable but remains a crime, therefore aiding and abetting of incest between related minors is punishable.[24] The legal term used in German jurisdiction is "Beischlaf" (engl. coitus); only vaginal intercourse is punishable, other forms of sexual activity remain exempt from punishment.
Regarding marriage, the same rules apply and prohibit marriage between aforementioned relatives.
The criminal liability of incest among consenting adults is socially disputed in Germany, though the Federal Court of Constitution (comparable to a Supreme Court/High Court) ruled in 26 February 2008 that § 173 StGB is constitutional in a 7:1 vote with one judge having a dissenting opinion regarding the commensurability.
Laws regarding incest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

Gardener said:
Much like a three year old might try to explain quantum physics, yes.
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My three year old had to explain it to me... I still didn't get it.
 
vesper said:
Consensual incest is legal in China, France, Israel, the Ivory Coast, the Netherlands, Russia, Spain and Turkey, according to a 2007 report from the Max Planck Institute in Germany. Switzerland is attempting to abolish their incest laws. Here in the U.S. the loosening of the laws has already been occurring. Today almost half of the states allow marriage to 1st cousins while lowering the penalties for violations of other incest relationships. So the threat is very real. You might not see it in your lifetime but your grandchildren may very well. I didn't think I'd see same sex marriage a real threat in my lifetime either, but here we are........and the way those who do not find incest to be wrong, will achieve their rights the same way same sex marriage are obtaining theirs. Same arguments...same everything.
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Real threat to what? :lol:
 
Juanita said:
Vesper, I see your point, but SSM is what we are discussing... Incest relationships are sick and damage the whole family, so start another thread..It is apples and oranges as far as I am concerned..
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Ever heard of the Slippery Slope? It isn't a lovely moist breast... it is an illogical argument used by fear mongers...
 
winston53660 said:
Not even with ontology's,,,,,,,
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I thought you wanted to know when it was legal to do your sister? I say **** it. If she is hot now is the time...
 
vesper said:
Oh really? Kool-Aid drinkers have a hard time grasping reality.

It's not a ridiculous notion for starters. Within the last 18 months an ivy league professor of law confessed to a consensual incest relationship with his adult daughter. His name is Epstein and not only is he a law professor at Columbia but he is a big contributor to the Huffington Post, one of the left's favorite places to pick up the news spin to their liking.


Those who practice incest are already asking the same question homosexuals did in their quest for so called "civil rights". And while the definition of marriage is being redefined by some, the door is open wide for others to use the same arguments to seek their "civil rights". To think that incest laws will never change in this country is ignorant to say the least. It's happening all over the world, so it can happen here too.
Lawyer defends incest-charged client: Columbia University professor | Liberty Unyielding
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And then we find ourselves on Dr. Morreau's Island?
 
winston53660 said:
If any of this was legal before gay marriage how is this a consequence of gay marriage?

For example cousin marriage

These developments led to 13 states and territories passing cousin marriage prohibitions by the 1880s. Though contemporaneous, the eugenics movement did not play much of a direct role in the bans, and indeed George Louis Arner in 1908 considered the ban a clumsy and ineffective method of eugenics, which he thought would eventually be replaced by more refined techniques. Ottenheimer considers both the bans and eugenics to be "one of several reactions to the fear that American society might degenerate".[22] In any case, by the period up until the mid-1920s the number of bans had more than doubled.[7] Since that time, the only three states to add this prohibition have been Kentucky in 1943, Maine in 1985, and Texas in 2005. The NCCUSL unanimously recommended in 1970 that all such laws should be repealed, but no state has dropped its prohibition since the mid-1920s.[3][9][23]

If anything the ban on cousin marriage in Texas came in after gay marriage was recognized in Massachusetts in 2004

BTW check the Plank institute for incest and got this

Search

Here's the wiki on it

Germany[edit source | editbeta]
In Germany, incest is punishable by law if consummated between people related by blood in direct line only, therefore between parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren plus among siblings and half siblings. The penalty is a fine or up to 3 years of prison. Incest between relatives who are minors (below 18 years old) at the time of offence is not punishable but remains a crime, therefore aiding and abetting of incest between related minors is punishable.[24] The legal term used in German jurisdiction is "Beischlaf" (engl. coitus); only vaginal intercourse is punishable, other forms of sexual activity remain exempt from punishment.
Regarding marriage, the same rules apply and prohibit marriage between aforementioned relatives.
The criminal liability of incest among consenting adults is socially disputed in Germany, though the Federal Court of Constitution (comparable to a Supreme Court/High Court) ruled in 26 February 2008 that § 173 StGB is constitutional in a 7:1 vote with one judge having a dissenting opinion regarding the commensurability.
Laws regarding incest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Currently there are 21 states that now recognize 1st cousin marriages + 2 others under certain currcumstances.
Cousin marriage law in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When you study each individual state's laws and punishments for incest, it is clear in the last few years that the laws are becoming softer.

For you to quote something from Germany is irrelevant.

All I am stating is the same way sodomy laws were abolished, incest laws have the potential to be abolished also. And after the abolishment of sodomy laws came the movement for same sex marriage using civil rights. People who do not find incest to be wrong, are asking the why is it alright for homosexuals and not me? Why should government be in my bedroom? And because of the new laws accommodating same sex marriage, opens the door for incestuous relationships to become legal.

If you can't grasp that, fine. Maybe someone reading this that never thought of that notion will think twice before casting a vote on emotion over same sex marriage without truly thinking through the consequences in changing law.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Ever heard of the Slippery Slope? It isn't a lovely moist breast... it is an illogical argument used by fear mongers...
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We have been debating this very thing for three days now, so I know this well....
 
Bodhisattva said:
Ever heard of the Slippery Slope? It isn't a lovely moist breast... it is an illogical argument used by fear mongers...
Click to expand...

And your argument is one used by one who is blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. There are such things as slippery slopes.
 
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vesper said:
Currently there are 21 states that now recognize 1st cousin marriages + 2 others under certain currcumstances.
Cousin marriage law in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When you study each individual state's laws and punishments for incest, it is clear in the last few years that the laws are becoming softer.
Click to expand...

I doubt you studied a single state.

For you to quote something from Germany is irrelevant.
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You brought up Germany and their laws in the first place.

All I am stating is the same way sodomy laws were abolished, incest laws have the potential to be abolished also. And after the abolishment of sodomy laws came the movement for same sex marriage using civil rights. People who do not find incest to be wrong, are asking the why is it alright for homosexuals and not me? Why should government be in my bedroom? And because of the new laws accommodating same sex marriage, opens the door for incestuous relationships to become legal.
Click to expand...

Well there are a few States already where it is not a crime. There are also states where beastiality is not crime.

If you can't grasp that, fine. Maybe someone reading this that never thought of that notion will think twice before casting a vote on emotion over same sex marriage without truly thinking through the consequences in changing law.
Click to expand...

If heterosexuals had never started getting married this whole slippery slope never would have started.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I thought you wanted to know when it was legal to do your sister? I say **** it. If she is hot now is the time...
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Thank you so much for bringing validity to my argument with these words. You such a strong advocate for gay rights/marriage and now we are learning you advocate incest too.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

ItAin'tFree said:
LOL. The only thing you might have destroyed is the letter "I' on your keyboard.
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And again... nothing. I understand that it must be embarrassing to have posted a refuted study. Hopefully you learned to do a bit more extensive research from this experience.
 
Ontologuy said:
I have clearly never lost in any "exchange" with you in these threads.
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Of course you have. Every time.

The usage of words change over time, but that does not mean that the word is "redefined" or "takes on a new meaning" when the usage of that word is erroneous with respect to the true meaning of the word being used.
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This sentence is contradictory.

I've clearly presented analogously that you simply can't call a cat a dog, erroneously misusing the word "dog", and expect any rational person to say "well, the word 'dog' was used to describe a cat so the word 'dog' has been redefined to include cats". :roll:
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This is an idiotic and false analogy. A dog and cat have MANY different attributes. A straight couple and a gay couple have near identical attributes. In fact, the only difference is in the gender/sexual orientation definition of the members. Your stupid analogy has been refuted. Now, I hold no aspersions that you will stop using it. You are well known for continuing to use failed arguments even after they have been completely destroyed. Every argument you have made falls into this description. So, from here on, when ever you post THIS idiotic and refuted analogy, I will just let you know that the idiotic analogy has been refuted, is not valid and will not be addressed.

Erroneous usage of a word does in no way redefine or change the meaning of the word, obviously.
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Since it is not erroneous, this statement is irrelevant.

Erroneously referring in usage to a SS-couple's relevant relationship as a "marriage" in no way redefines or changes the meaning of the word "marriage".
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Since it is not erroneous, this statement is irrelevant.

The word "marriage" continues to mean "a man and a woman as husband and wife".

It really is that simple.
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And I have shown that it is not that simple and the word cannot mean that if it is to meet the definition of the word "definition". You have failed to prove this argument wrong.

Thus your derogatory comments about me you presented in the post here I quoted are simply really in reference to yourself ..

.. Obviously.
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I made no derogatory comments. I accurately described the error in your posting. I understand that you don't like when I point out your errors and how poorly you debate. If you don't like it, stop doing it.
 
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