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On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

CriticalThought said:
1. A founder of the gay rights movement was associated with NAMBLA.
2. The gay rights movement supports same sex marriage.
3. People don't like NAMBLA.
4. Therefore, people should not support the gay rights movement or same sex marriage.

That is still an association fallacy. Do you actually not see how it is illogical? That is like me saying, "Hitler called himself a Christian, and I think if most believers realized that Hitler was a Christian, nobody would want to be a Christian." That is pretty weak.



There are still churches in the South that will not marry interracial couples. Conflict between religious views and social progress is always going to occur.
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That is not what I stated and stop putting words into my post that are not there.

The gay rights movement IS associated with NAMBLA through members of NAMBLA also advocates for gay rights.
The gay rights movement including NAMBLA support same sex marriage
People should be informed of the founding of the gay rights movement and until recently had a new makeover separating themselves from NAMBLA because of its unpopularity.

That would be more accurate.

As far as the rest of your gobbledygook

Most people don't call Hitler a Christian today, but during his reign he certainly had enough Germans convinced he was.

As far as interracial couples, that is still an issue of marriage between a man and a woman and has little to nothing to do with same sex marriage. If some still practice it in the South then let that be a lesson for the learning that you can not legislate every racist practice out of existence and it's time to stop trying.

As far as consequences for redefining marriage...what can currently be observed is....


Redefining marriage marginalizes those with traditional views and leads to the erosion of religious liberty. The laws that are being written to define discrimination while those who support same sex marriages are eradicating such views through economic, social, and legal pressure. The consequences for religious believers are becoming apparent. Recently in the news multiple federal justices have been willing to deny rights of conscience to those who deny services to gay couples in relation to gay marriage. They are forced to carry a burden of legal expenses that no person should have to encounter in this country in exercising their constitutional rights of conscience. But that is how the game is played on the left. They use Lawfare, a type of warfare where politically appointed justices can make asinine judgments to further a political agenda allow a false validation to stand. And those who don't know a Constitutional right from the hole in their arse are the dumb sheeple giving homage to such opinons.

Another current example of consequence is after Massachusetts redefined marriage to include same-sex relationships, Catholic Charities of Boston was forced to discontinue its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples against its principles.

Massachusetts public schools began teaching grade-school students about same-sex marriage, defending their decision because they are “committed to teaching about the world they live in, and in Massachusetts same-sex marriage is legal.” But it didn't stop there, Massachusetts appellate court ruled that parents have no right to exempt their children from these classes.

The denial of parental rights in public schools and the denial of Religious freedoms are two pretty big ones in my book.
 
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Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
Redefining marriage marginalizes those with traditional views and leads to the erosion of religious liberty.
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What about gay Christians right to religious liberty? Anf having their marriages recognized by the state.

Another current example of consequence is after Massachusetts redefined marriage to include same-sex relationships, Catholic Charities of Boston was forced to discontinue its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples against its principles.
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They were using State funds therefore must follow State guidelines.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

winston53660 said:
They were using State funds therefore must follow State guidelines.
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State funds well spent, this organization over the years provided many unwanted children with home complete with a mother and a father. Something the whole community benefited from. But not anymore.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

ItAin'tFree said:
1. There is no "right" to get married. For anybody. But don't act like you don't mind discrimination, you already posted that some types of marriage you are against.
3. No it's very important. Some people like to pretend, such as you, that everybody is on board with this. People of all types are not.
4. Behavior is not a skin tone or gender.
5. You don't want equality, you already posted against some types of marriage.
6 Don't mind me if I'm not dumb enough to take your word for it. There's been groups out there for years pushing for things besides two adults getting married.
7. It's completely true. You are an example. You said you saw nothing wrong with multiple wife's or something close to it.
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1.) you are factually wrong, SCOTUS disagreed with you 14 times
Video: 14 Supreme Court Rulings on Marriage | American Foundation for Equal Rights
2.) no i have not posted any types of "marriages" im against but please feel free to make up more stuff
3.) no its not important at all to equally and ending discrimination and i have never said that everybody is on board. Why thats two things you just made up now. Does that tactic ever work for you? its failing currently
4.) correct but yet its still discrimination and you have not answered the question. instead of dodging it answer the questions. What risk?
5.) repeating this lie wont make it true
6.) you dont take my word for it but then agree with me weird. either way your example is meaningless to equal rights for gays
7.) nope its completely false, the obvious and educated point you are missing is its not a Pandora box its about rights and freedoms. If people wanted to fight for the new rights of polygamy im fine with that as along as it consenting adults but gay marriage would lead to that anymore than straight marriage. sorry you fail again

again any examples ?
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
State funds well spent, this organization over the years provided many unwanted children with home complete with a mother and a father. Something the whole community benefited from. But not anymore.
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To bad they put their discrimination before helping these kids.

During a recent episode of MaineWatch on the Maine Public Broadcasting Network, an anti-marriage activist said that Catholic Charities in Boston was forced to stop its adoption services because Massachusetts allows same-sex couples to marry.

While the claim has been repeated across Maine many times, it is not true.

This is a shameful distortion of what actually happened.

I should know. I was the chairman of the board of directors for Catholic Charities of Boston.

I feel compelled to set the record straight and let voters in Maine, who might not remember what actually happened, know the truth.

Like many of my fellow Catholics, I believe our greatest commandment is to help those who are in need and to love our neighbors as ourselves. That call is why I joined the board of directors of Catholic Charities of Boston.

I was especially proud of our work facilitating the adoption of abandoned and neglected children.

Catholic Charities used the one and only criteria that’s appropriate for adoption agencies — the best interest of the child.

For nearly two decades, Catholic Charities arranged adoptions to families who would provide safe, loving homes for the children we worked with, many of whom were from difficult backgrounds and harder to place.

We placed kids according to their needs and to make sure that they would find a loving and stable adoptive home. The kids always came first.

Most of these children, as a matter of fact, were adopted by straight couples, but during 15 years, about 13 were placed in the stable, secure and loving homes of same-sex couples.

Then in 2005, tragically, and out of the blue, the Vatican told our agency to cease using the single criteria of “best interest of the children.”

They ordered us to stop facilitating adoptions to households headed by gay men and lesbians.

I objected.

First and foremost, the Church hierarchy was telling us to ignore the best interests of the children we were trying to place. But just as important, the bishops were telling us to ignore decades-old anti-discrimination laws.

Catholic Charities had signed a contract with the state and accepted taxpayer money to provide adoption services for hard to place children. Some of these kids were older, had behavioral issues or chronic medical conditions.

When organizations accept taxpayer dollars, they have to follow anti-discrimination laws that are in place to make sure everyone is treated equally. If we excluded qualified families simply because they were gay or lesbian, we would violate those laws.

When taxpayers are footing the bill, you can’t discriminate against people. It is part of the contract to do the work.

The decision had nothing to do with marriage, and the conflict would likely have occurred regardless of whether same-sex couples could legally marry.

The board reacted strongly to the Vatican’s order, voting 42-0 against excluding gay and lesbian families from adoption services. From the board’s point of view, the decision was wrong for children and a violation of longstanding law.

When the hierarchy persisted in its demand, the organization had little choice but to end adoption services. They had made the decision to put other interests ahead of what was best for the children we served.

Along with seven other board members, I resigned.

While the adoption services Catholic Charities had provided were immediately filled by other social service agencies, the decision broke my heart.

http://www.sunjournal.com/news/colu...ruth-about-adoptions-has-been-distort/1267212
 
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Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

winston53660 said:
To bad they put their discrimination before helping these kids.

Most of these children, as a matter of fact, were adopted by straight couples, but during 15 years, about 13 were placed in the stable, secure and loving homes of same-sex couples.

Then in 2005, tragically, and out of the blue, the Vatican told our agency to cease using the single criteria of “best interest of the children.”

They ordered us to stop facilitating adoptions to households headed by gay men and lesbians.
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In that copy and paste you posted did it ever occur to you that the reason for the Vatican issuing such a mandate is because a handful of instances came up showing protocol was not being followed? Hell no, you just have an agenda and truth just gets in the way.

A whole 13 kids in a 15 year period. How many years did it take for someone to catch the practice of someone not following protacol? Catholic adoption agencies in my area have NEVER allowed same sex marriage adoptions.

The one that wrote take opinion piece probably didn't resign on his own but was encouraged to because if truth be known he was responsible for at least some of those adoptions.

Quite a piece of desperation on your part.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
In that copy and paste you posted did it ever occur to you that the reason for the Vatican issuing such a mandate is because a handful of instances came up showing protocol was not being followed.

A whole 13 kids in a 15 year period. How many years did it take for someone to catch the practice?

The one that wrote take opinion piece probably didn't resign on his own but was encouraged to because if truth be known he was responsible for at least some of those adoptions.

Quite a piece of desperation on your part.
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Desperation? hardy har har. The Board of Catholic Charities voted unanimously:

The board reacted strongly to the Vatican’s order, voting 42-0 against excluding gay and lesbian families from adoption services.
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Instead the vatican choose their discrimination above helping these kids.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

anybody been told the factual consequence for granting equal rights, seems we are still waiting for that

only factual consequences im aware of is granting equal rights and trying to prevent discrimination
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

AGENT J said:
anybody been told the factual consequence for granting equal rights, seems we are still waiting for that

only factual consequences im aware of is granting equal rights and trying to prevent discrimination
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Well it seems vesper has a problem with gays adopting.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

winston53660 said:
Well it seems vesper has a problem with gays adopting.
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really i missed that, what were the reasons

well if thats true the people who are actually educated in that department like these groups and more: US pediatrics, American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, American Academy of Family Physicians, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychoanalytic Association, American Psychological Association, American Medical Association, Child Welfare League of America, National Association of Social Workers, North American Council on Adoptable Children

all endorse gays adopting

and the studies show that all other things being equal kids do as well in same parent households.

I think ill said with facts, common sense and those groups among others that disagree with his unsupportable, uneducated opinion in this field.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

AGENT J said:
1.) you are factually wrong, SCOTUS disagreed with you 14 times
Video: 14 Supreme Court Rulings on Marriage | American Foundation for Equal Rights
2.) no i have not posted any types of "marriages" im against but please feel free to make up more stuff
3.) no its not important at all to equally and ending discrimination and i have never said that everybody is on board. Why thats two things you just made up now. Does that tactic ever work for you? its failing currently
4.) correct but yet its still discrimination and you have not answered the question. instead of dodging it answer the questions. What risk?
5.) repeating this lie wont make it true
6.) you dont take my word for it but then agree with me weird. either way your example is meaningless to equal rights for gays
7.) nope its completely false, the obvious and educated point you are missing is its not a Pandora box its about rights and freedoms. If people wanted to fight for the new rights of polygamy im fine with that as along as it consenting adults but gay marriage would lead to that anymore than straight marriage. sorry you fail again

again any examples ?
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LOL. American Foundation for Equal Rights? LOL. They don't grant rights to anybody. LOL.
1. Show me in the Constitution where anybody has the right to marry. You can't. Even a lame brain should be able to figure out why you don't have a guaranteed right to get married. Maybe one day you will catch on.
2. Then I misunderstood this blabber you typed out, " this is always true but thats meaningless true, rapist ant that to be legal, killers want that to be legal, child molesters want that legal. What does that have to do with equal rights for gays?"
3. I pointed out some things to you and your word was it was "meaningless" and listed examples of other people. Once again, I guess I didn't understand your blabber. Maybe you don't either.
4. Behavior is behavior. When sanctioned by the government some people will view it as encouragement.
5. So you are for all types of marriage? How about 30 year olds marrying 10 year olds? Non-discriminating people would be for it so I must assume you are all in.
6. Oh, as best I can tell, I agree with you on nothing.
7. Completely true as once again, you prove the point, again.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

winston53660 said:
Desperation? hardy har har. The Board of Catholic Charities voted unanimously:



Instead the vatican choose their discrimination above helping these kids.
Click to expand...


It wasn't just the Vatican but the Bishops over Massachusetts against the practice.
The state's four Catholic Bishops in unison stated the law of same sex marriage threatens the church's religious freedom by forcing it to do something it considers immoral.

Eight members of Catholic Charities board later stepped down in protest of the bishops' stance. The 42-member board had voted unanimously to continue considering gay households for adoptions. If truth be known it was the Bishops that made the Vatican aware that those on the Catholic charities in Massachusetts had previously adopted 13 children to gay couples over the past 15 years and that is why the mandate came from the Vatican to warn them to stop. Nowhere else in this country that I am aware of where this an issue. NO Catholic adoption charity I am aware of adopts to same sex couples. And apparently even the liberal minded Massachusetts charity board still held a certain standard and could only find 13 kids in 15 years of same sex partners worthy of adoption.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

ItAin'tFree said:
LOL. American Foundation for Equal Rights? LOL. They don't grant rights to anybody. LOL.
1. Show me in the Constitution where anybody has the right to marry. You can't. Even a lame brain should be able to figure out why you don't have a guaranteed right to get married. Maybe one day you will catch on.
2. Then I misunderstood this blabber you typed out, " this is always true but thats meaningless true, rapist ant that to be legal, killers want that to be legal, child molesters want that legal. What does that have to do with equal rights for gays?"
3. I pointed out some things to you and your word was it was "meaningless" and listed examples of other people. Once again, I guess I didn't understand your blabber. Maybe you don't either.
4. Behavior is behavior. When sanctioned by the government some people will view it as encouragement.
5. So you are for all types of marriage? How about 30 year olds marrying 10 year olds? Non-discriminating people would be for it so I must assume you are all in.
6. Oh, as best I can tell, I agree with you on nothing.
7. Completely true as once again, you prove the point, again.
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1.) like i said SCOTUS disagreed with you 14 times i think ill go with the facts rather than your factually proven wrong opinion
2.) thank you for admitting your mistake, that takes integrity,like i said i never said i was against any MARRIAGES
3.) again your mistake because no where did i ever even come close to sayign everybody is on board. Deflections wont change the mistakes you made.
4.) and those people are idiots and have no facts to support their mentally retarded claims because it will be RIGHTS that are sanctioned
5.) again it wouldnt be the marriage part, as i pointed out EARLIER as long as its consenting adults im pretty good in most cases.
minors arent allowed to do contracts and i dont support violating the rights of that minor by letting them get raped and molested.
its the violation of rights im against.

discriminating against that doesn't violate any rights, restrict them or infringing on them. It PROTECTS the rights of others! SOrry dishonest deflection posts like this wont work.
once again its about rights, you seem to miss this

6.) thats good because i was worried, i was gonna go back and check what i said, it makes me happy that you dont, its very reassuring
7.) nope i proved it wrong again because thats not what Pandora box is, maybe you dont understand the expression

there will be no Pandora box because this wont lead to anything and everything, it will just be about rights and it wont lead to anything that hetero marriage doesnt also, sorry your post fails again

i noticed you are still dodging supplying me with examples? very telling
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

Why isn't this in the right forum?
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
It wasn't just the Vatican but the Bishops over Massachusetts against the practice.
The state's four Catholic Bishops in unison stated the law of same sex marriage threatens the church's religious freedom by forcing it to do something it considers immoral.

Eight members of Catholic Charities board later stepped down in protest of the bishops' stance. The 42-member board had voted unanimously to continue considering gay households for adoptions. If truth be known it was the Bishops that made the Vatican aware that those on the Catholic charities in Massachusetts had previously adopted 13 children to gay couples over the past 15 years and that is why the mandate came from the Vatican to warn them to stop. Nowhere else in this country that I am aware of where this an issue. NO Catholic adoption charity I am aware of adopts to same sex couples. And apparently even the liberal minded Massachusetts charity board still held a certain standard and could only find 13 kids in 15 years of same sex partners worthy of adoption.
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Thats nice, discrimination is immoral (There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.) and illegal as well.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

winston53660 said:
Thats nice, discrimination is immoral (There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.) and illegal as well.
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Now you have resorted to quoting the Apostle Paul (out of context) from Galatians 3:28 to further your emotional stance . But the Apostle Paul preached against homosexuality in a message of love. Too bad you didn't read a little further in Galatians to chapter 5 you would have caught it.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
Now you have resorted to quoting the Apostle Paul (out of context) from Galatians 3:28 to further your emotional stance . But the Apostle Paul preached against homosexuality in a message of love. Too bad you didn't read a little further in Galatians to chapter 5 you would have caught it.
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My religious conscious tells me discrimination is a sin. :2wave:
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

winston53660 said:
My religious conscious tells me discrimination is a sin. :2wave:
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Fair enough, but I hope you remember that when discriminating against those whose religious conscience is in conflict with yours. Peace.
 
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Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

Gaugingcatenate said:
No, civil rights, aka political rights, are only civil rights if we decide they are. They are NOT human rights, which are naturally endowed to each human no matter what. They are, instead, man-made government legislated laws that include and leave out whoever we want.
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The only naturally endowed human rights, as I've pointed out before, is to breathe and go to the bathroom.. We are a nation of laws...We are governed by laws.. We vote for or against those making the laws. That is our system of government...Love it or leave it..
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

Gaugingcatenate said:
Sounds nothing like separate but equal...sounds like equal is equal...exactly the same. With Plessy v Ferguson it was separate schools, separate teachers, hand me down books if books at all, separate rail road cars, separate fountains, separate bathrooms, separate restaurants...

So why don't you tell us how that matches up at all.
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Actually, it seems to me to be the same principle--everyone does not have the same rights..
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

Gaugingcatenate said:
Other people might be suggested to do the exact same, my dear. That would be equal treatment, right?

Fact of the matter is we have extended exactly that to the homosexual community. We minded our own business, looked the other way, didn't think about it because we really didn't want to delve that deeply. We were what was wanted, what was asked, we were "tolerant".

That, however, has not been, and apparently is not currently, good enough. Now we have to accept, condone and even, as has been brought out elsewhere in this thread, teach and encourage our children and thus confuse our children about this practice that many, if not most, disagree heartily with all the way down to those who may not have a problem with it but do not see it as promoting a healthy culture. We allow it, we certainly DO NOT want to promote it.

I have, as do you, a right to my opinions on how I WANT MY COUNTRY TO BE, again just as you do. Just saying shut up is not an argument in the circles where I hang out, probably much more in other, more liberal circles that seems to go for proper argumentation. Might as well add that from the left proper argumentation also seems to include ad homs, demagoguery, straw men, lack of knowledge of actual events yet pushing a false narrative, etc... you get the picture.

Sorry, not about to shut up, have been meek, holding our tongues for too too long... time to stand up and fight for that which will keep our integrity and the continued strength of this great country.
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What does gay rights have to do with the strength and integrity of our country?.. It is their country too and you don't have the right to be either tolerant nor intolerant of a citizen's right to their pursuit of happiness..
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

CriticalThought said:
I am going to agree to disagree with you on it. As I said, it is irrelevant to me since I don't consider the story or Leviticus to be a basis on how I would conduct myself or how I would expect others to conduct themselves. If that is the basis for your views, then I wish you well.

As far as my personal view on it. God was going to destroy the city of Sodom no matter what because he made that decision before the whole rapey incident occurred and Lot could not even find 10 righteous men in the city in however many days God gave him to do so. And if Lot, a man who offered his daughters for rape, is to be considered the standard of righteousness in this story...well I can't say I'm as inclined to care as much as you are. Define "sodomy" however you want. In the end, we all get to answer for ourselves.
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Well, of all those who've disagreed thus far, yours is the most rational and honest. I appreciate that.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
People should be informed of the founding of the gay rights movement and until recently had a new makeover separating themselves from NAMBLA because of its unpopularity.
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Let's assume you were right and every single founder of the gay rights movement had been a card carrying member of NAMBLA. What exactly would that mean for the current gay rights movement and the push for same sex marriage? What would that have to do with anything?

It is still an illogical association fallacy. You are trying to equate all gays and gay rights supporters as somehow having something to do with pedophilia because of one or two members of the gay rights movement who were a member of NAMBLA like 30 or so years ago. It is ridiculous and irrational.

Redefining marriage marginalizes those with traditional views and leads to the erosion of religious liberty. The laws that are being written to define discrimination while those who support same sex marriages are eradicating such views through economic, social, and legal pressure. The consequences for religious believers are becoming apparent. Recently in the news multiple federal justices have been willing to deny rights of conscience to those who deny services to gay couples in relation to gay marriage. They are forced to carry a burden of legal expenses that no person should have to encounter in this country in exercising their constitutional rights of conscience. But that is how the game is played on the left. They use Lawfare, a type of warfare where politically appointed justices can make asinine judgments to further a political agenda allow a false validation to stand. And those who don't know a Constitutional right from the hole in their arse are the dumb sheeple giving homage to such opinons.
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Alliance Defense Fund has picked up just about every one of those cases, so I'm not sure where are this "legal expenses" nonsense is coming from. As far as "lawfare" it is called using the legal system as intended. It works the other way around. Christian groups have used it to defend religious liberty in several cases. It is just when it is used by gay rights groups it is suddenly something evil and nefarious.

Another current example of consequence is after Massachusetts redefined marriage to include same-sex relationships, Catholic Charities of Boston was forced to discontinue its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples against its principles.
Click to expand...

Forced? They chose to do so. And adoption is about what is in the best interest of children, not religious groups.

Massachusetts public schools began teaching grade-school students about same-sex marriage, defending their decision because they are “committed to teaching about the world they live in, and in Massachusetts same-sex marriage is legal.” But it didn't stop there, Massachusetts appellate court ruled that parents have no right to exempt their children from these classes.
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That simply is not true.

The denial of parental rights in public schools and the denial of Religious freedoms are two pretty big ones in my book.
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You need to check your facts.
 
Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

vesper said:
You can not credit me with saying all homosexuals want to legalize adults having sex with minors. I just pointed to the connection of NAMBLA with homosexuality and the founder of the first gay rights movement had associations with NAMBLA.

I very much doubt that many straight people who support gay marriage are aware of that fact maybe it would matter to some and then again maybe not.

Nor do I believe there are many who understand the consequences of trampling the rights of conscience of those who can not support gay marriage in the name of stomping out discrimination. When political appointed federal judges can do that hello Houston we have a problem.
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"Consequences of trampling the rights of conscience.". This phrase continues to crack me up...:rofl....tagword for "your" religious beliefs.. That is what it all boils down to... Judges are there to protect us and the constitution from religious radicals, who would love to take "our" rights away on this issue as well as others...
 
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