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Thread: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

  1. #491
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Yes it is a valid point to include the history of organizations that were part of the gay rights movement in the beginning. I have never claimed all agreed with NAMBLA but that NAMBLA was part of their organizations for decades. To deny that is being intellectually dishonest.
    No it is NOT valid! As I've already explained to you, attempting to use NAMBLA to denegrate the Gay Rights Movement and provide support for any argument about opposing same-sex marriage is both an an egregious misstatement of facts and innately fallacious. To do so is the real dishonesty here, since your tactic is clearly deceptive and fails to address the issue under discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Now you and others continue to go back to my NAMBLA statement as not being valid. Well clearly the organization had ties to the gay rights movement. Deal with it. It seems you all are using the NAMBLA issue to avoid discussing how laws on discrimination and Gay marriage are affecting us now and the affects they will have in the future.
    And the KKK and other white power groups clearly have ties to various Christian churches and other "traditional" organizations. Many members are involved in your "traditional marriage" groups, not only opposed to "gay marriage" but to interracial marriage too. By your logic, their involvement completely undermines ALL of your arguments in opposition to same-sex marriage. Note, I am not using this argument in support of same-sex marriage, just pointing out the inherent failure of YOUR own repetitive argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    No, no, It is you that has the reading comprehension problem. I asked a question to Captain Adverse about a statement he made. My question was in reference to what he wrote. You jumped in, quick on the trigger trying to make your point. I responded to your smart a**ed answer in relation to the context of the question I asked Captain Adverse. You never bothered to separate anything in the smart a** answer you sent to me so my reply to you was likewise.
    I did not respond to your post because another member (see below) provided a clearly cogent answer that I did not think required further explanation:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    ItAin'tFree; How could these people be "twisted" if everyone should be allowed to "marry who they love" as those who push gay marriage keep saying? Myself, I don't buy into that nonsense but the gay right special rights activists keep saying it.
    Do you understand legal consent? I'm guessing not.
    Apparently we were both mstaken. So in case you still don't understand let me make it perfectly clear: The age of legal consent is based upon State law, serving to grant juveniles of a certain age and older a legal right to voluntarily engage in sexual activity with other adults. Currently the youngest age of consent is 16, allowed in 31 States and the District of Columbia. It is true that a very few states allow marriages at a younger age but only with the consent of the parents, and this often requires some form of judicial review to insure the child involved truly understands what is occurring and agrees.

    To further clarify, marriage requires informed consent from each member entering into the bonds. Dogs, horses, plants, furniture and other forms of property have neither the power nor the capability to give informed consent. Being property, the owner can typically do pretty much whatever he wants with it except "legally" marry it. Your question has no merit in this or any other discussion about marriage.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-10-13 at 07:50 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #492
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    yes, but the recognition of marriage for same sex people does not make the government start recognizing marriages between people who are in direct relation. The laws are still separate. making one legal does not make the other one legal though you may think it should. No, the gays are not bringing the incest people along on the bus with them. They will make their own arguments. People will have to address that issue separately. they are not the same.
    There are no guarantees that same sex marriages will be made to adhere to the same laws and rules of traditional marriage. Family law is now having to be re-written because of redefining marriage.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    There are no guarantees that same sex marriages will be made to adhere to the same laws and rules of traditional marriage. Family law is now having to be re-written because of redefining marriage.
    Actually there is one guarantee, and that is to just allow same sex couples to participate. All that has to happen is you start allowing gays to get married. it does not change any laws about incest, children, or animals. It does not make it so you can have more than one marriage recognized by the state. You can divide up assets the same way as before. You can argue over child custody the same way as straights. If it is the same contract then it stays the same for all. What require3s rewriting is separate but equal which is things like civil unions. But please do enlighten us what part of the marriage contracts, aside from just the gender terms, are being changed. Yes, they may have to change some gender terms, but the laws themselves are not acting differently for the couple.

    See that is the myth that there is gay marriage when you apply marriage to homosexuals. There is just marriage in that case. Where you have a special situation is civil unions and that is I guess as close to a gay marriage as you get. Gays do not want special circumstances, they want the same marriage everyone else gets. They will make it fabulous on their own.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    No it is NOT valid! As I've already explained to you, attempting to use NAMBLA to denegrate the Gay Rights Movement and provide support for any argument about opposing same-sex marriage is both an an egregious misstatement of facts and innately fallacious. To do so is the real dishonesty here, since your tactic is clearly deceptive and fails to address the issue under discussion.



    And the KKK and other white power groups clearly have ties to various Christian churches and other "traditional" organizations. Many members are involved in your "traditional marriage" groups, not only opposed to "gay marriage" but to interracial marriage too. By your logic, their involvement completely undermines ALL of your arguments in opposition to same-sex marriage. Note, I am not using this argument in support of same-sex marriage, just pointing out the inherent failure of YOUR own repetitive argument.
    And what you fail to recognize is that same sex marriage may not operate under the same LAWs as traditional marriage because of their differences. The institution of gay marriage is still in the building process. You nor anyone else knows what that institution is going to look like when it is completed.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And what you fail to recognize is that same sex marriage may not operate under the same LAWs as traditional marriage because of their differences. The institution of gay marriage is still in the building process. You nor anyone else knows what that institution is going to look like when it is completed.
    Other than the fact that members of SSM are of the same sex, please tell us what differences there are.
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  6. #496
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And what you fail to recognize is that same sex marriage may not operate under the same LAWs as traditional marriage because of their differences. The institution of gay marriage is still in the building process. You nor anyone else knows what that institution is going to look like when it is completed.
    They will operate "under the same laws" as traditional marriage. Only you and those who presume same-sex marriage somehow undermines "traditional" marriage think otherwise.

    How can I make this statement? Simply because marriage occurs between two adult human beings who give informed consent to enter into such a matrimonial bonding. Same-sex couples, regardless of gender, are two adult human beings.

    The gender pairing is essentially the ONLY difference between same-sex and heterosexual unions. Once you realize this it becomes clear that the same laws affecting a heterosexual married couple would apply to a same-sex married couple. In fact I challenge you to name a single real legal difference that cannot be rightly interpreted as applying to a same-sex married couple.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-10-13 at 08:22 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Kids raised by gays have more trouble than other kids because of ****ing people like you downloading your **** onto your children. And because the system you are right now defending gives the parents that trouble.

    The man is saying this is your fault.
    LOL. Funny, I never saw where he wrote that. Could it be because whatever "stigma" involved is a result of their behavior? And I'm not sure what you mean by my *****, I feel a lot of hate and bigotry coming from when you have no clue as to how I raised my own kids. Nor did you ever have a right or say so in how I did. Sounds like you support the thought police though.

    Once again, you are a providing a good example in the hypocrisy display by those pushing special rights for gays. It's not about equal treatment or stopping discrimination, it's about gathering support and legitimizing discrimination that they support.
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    They will operate "under the same laws" as traditional marriage. Only you and those who presume same-sex marriage somehow undermines "traditional" marriage think otherwise.

    How can I make this statement? Simply because marriage occurs between two adult human beings who give informed consent to enter into such a matrimonial bonding. Same-sex couples, regardless of gender, are two adult human beings.

    The gender pairing is essentially the ONLY difference between same-sex and heterosexual unions. Once you realize this it becomes clear that the same laws affecting a heterosexual married couple would apply to a same-sex married couple. In fact I challenge you to name a single real legal difference that cannot be rightly interpreted as applying to a same-sex married couple.
    Though your words on the surface look good, in reality I find hard to believe that the Law can bridge the cultural differences in the two types of marriage. In fact there is a real concern by trying to do so could alter those Laws on marriage that make sense of marital norms already established.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Here is a good definition of the slippery slope logical fallacy:



    I have demonstrated that none of the things mentioned are analogous to SSM. This eliminates the causal relationship. If you think there is a causal relationship, prove it.

    The only difference between a "slippery slope" and incremental-ism is whether the person using it is a supporter or opponent of any given policy. I don't need to "prove" anything to you as your opinion, approval, endorsement, acceptance are not relevant to anything I believe.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Though your words on the surface look good, in reality I find hard to believe that the Law can bridge the cultural differences in the two types of marriage. In fact there is a real concern by trying to do so could alter those Laws on marriage that make sense of marital norms already established.
    That is no answer. In fact it is the most amazing example of circular logic and double-talk I have seen so far in this thread. Now you are talking about the possibility of same-sex marriages "altering current laws." Marriage is marriage, the laws applying to heterosexual couples would simply apply to same sex couples. This includes divorce, property rights, death benefits, adoption, step-parenting, natural born children, etc., etc. You keep "hedging" because you have no leg to stand on "legally speaking."

    Just in case you forgot, here is your quote again:

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    And what you fail to recognize is that same sex marriage may not operate under the same LAWs as traditional marriage because of their differences.
    YOU assert that same sex marriage may not operate under current LAWS concerning legal rights and obligations of traditional marriage. Therefore the onus is on YOU to provide a factual basis for such an assertion. You have been challenged to provide any real example of currently existing law which could be not be interpreted to affect same-sex marriages the same way they do "traditional" marriages. Absent such evidence you have no argument.

    We are all waiting patiently for your evidence.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-10-13 at 10:24 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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