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Thread: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

  1. #441
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    Who is trying to erase the lines here? Me? No, my friend--it is you... I would say that any father/daughter wanting to marry each other should be committed for psychiatric care.. Maybe those stories about inbred southern folks is true?
    I would say the same thing about same sex marriage, need some real mental health care there, not the avoidance of the problem. Surely not giving into the problem, that is not a solution.

    And hardly there juanita, erasing the lines is just what will happen if you folks on the left get your way... you see, those kinda folks, father daughter, more run in the liberal circles...see, they have a better chance of getting what they want that way, they know we won't go for it on this side.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Good evening Juanita, the right of conscience is protected under the First Amendment under freedom of religion.
    Another really terrible argument. BTW the Bible condones slavery, but you cannot own a slave in the US because christianity claims it is perfectly fine, and even endorsed since god gives instructions on how to do it. The bible speaks of moral situations where you are obliged to stone people to death, but we do not allow that even though christianity says it must be so. Also, that freedom of religion also means you do not have to abide by the morals of any religion as law. You only have to abide by the laws set forth in the US when in the US. Because your religion says so does not mean it has to be so. The banning of recognition of gay marriage is actually imposing religious law on all people whether or not they believe in it or not. That is expressly forbidden by the same amendment you quoted. It is a good idea not to torpedo your own argument. If you want to pull religion and the first amendment into the argument about gay marriage you immediately invalidate any religious argument you have. You need to make another non-religious argument against gay marriage if you want to use the first amendment.
    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    James Madison the author of the Constitution spoke of matters of conscience and religion not merely as toleration but as fundamental, natural rights. You will often find the State Constitutions throughout this country echoing those thoughts and will find the words "religious conscience" or "right of conscience" included in their constitution. A good example of this is in The Virginia Declaration of Rights that was initially drafted to guarantee "fullest toleration" of religion; but Madison amended it and when it passed, it provided that "all men are entitled to the full and free exercise of [religion] according to the dictates of conscience." Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance expressed the language of rights, not toleration: "The equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience is held by the same tenure with all our other rights. He explained:

    The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. . . . It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him.

    Once upon a time in this country through civics education a person didn't have to ask what right of conscience meant for they were taught the meaning of religious freedoms which includes the right of conscience in grade school. Not anymore.
    Toleration of religion is not enforcement of religion. What toleration would mean is allowing any religion, or non religious person, to be married as per their doctrines. Now that toleration is not universal as I showed before. many religions endorse and mandate spousal and child abuse as discipline, but we do not tolerate those dictates. Assault and domestic abuse are illegal despite the reality christianity says you must do it. So even the idea that your religions rules must be tolerated in every way is crazy talk as you certainly would not tolerate illegal actions like assault simply because say a religion like Islam spoke of things like a jihad. Now we note your own lack of being able to follow your own words when we can all realize you certainly would never give the same toleration to others you expect in regards to the gay rights issue. Finally, your beliefs are tolerated. No one is requiring any religion to marry a gay couple if it is opposed to such things. So you will never be forced to be gay married or perform a gay marriage as an official of a church. That is the extent of tolerance. You do not get to dictate others lives under the warped view that it is tolerance of your religion. They can act as they would based on their religious and moral beliefs. Tolerance is you acting as you would for yourself while allowing others to act as they would. In a legal sense as long as they are not harming you, which you can in no reasonable way show gay marriage harms you, they have every right to act as they would within those boundaries which is why the supreme court found the people had no position to fight for the gay marriage ban as they could show no way it could effect them and no legitimate concern they had with keeping gays from being married. In other words the doctrines of christianity were not a reason for the state not to recognize gay unions.

  3. #443
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    It certainly is not the truth of the matter at all--not even close...It does not hurt society in any way.. It does not confuse children who truly understand Love.. Who are you to judge what is natural and what is not natural.. Can a man do to another man what he cannot do to a woman? Think about that for a moment... Your religious viewpoint will not and should not overrule the religious or nonreligious viewpoints of others..
    Wow, hard to argue with such "logic", logically illogical maybe. Yes it does hurt society, it does confuse children. I am an intelligent human being and I know its unnatural. Man and woman are naturally made to mate. Male and female parts naturally fit... how do we know that? Through the creation of beings just like us, other human beings, that is THE NATURAL WAY of continuing the species. Homosexuality, and I should not have to explain this, does not lead to a continuation of the species. And it is the other way around, man can do anything to a woman that he can do to a man, he cannot do anything to a man that he could to a woman... he can impregnate her, he cannot do that to a him...think about it...

    The viewpoint of the majority, whether religious or not, will be what rules, no matter what or how you think.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Ummm....

    30 states have constitutional amendments banning SSM, if I remember correctly, and another have gone through the legislative process identifying marriage to be only between one man one woman...so not imposed at all....may want to look up how in the democratic process we make laws through our elected representatives... and also how we amend a constitution...not imposed at all, agreed to by the majority.
    Like this topic started off as, those amendments are unconstitutional and are in the process of being destroyed through the courts. Precedent has already been set for declaring them unconstitutional, and if the supreme court demands standing to defend those amendments they won't be overturning those precedents. Just because a law is passed does not mean it is right. We had slavery, prohibition, bans on interracial marriage, and many other horrible laws we have risen above. If it being set down as law is your defense of those laws then it is fundamentally flawed.

  5. #445
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Yeah, sorry, but but that's not it, not even close. So, your powers of interpretation fail you as usual I am afraid. But good luck with all that. Its just too much trouble pulling the old electron microscope out to try to find even a hint of substance...too much work for nada.

    Translation: You want me to let you know when I'll be willing to continuously bang my head against the wall

    translation: you have no facts to support your posted lies, we knew that already but i figured i asked for them to see if you would at least try
    anyway let us know when you have ANY facts to support your false claims, ANY . . . . hell ONE fact
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  6. #446
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    I understand it is hard to come up with so many incoherent arguments, fallacies, and slippery slopes that do not exist when you cannot come up with a real argument about why 2 consenting adults enter a legal partnership with each other cannot be of the same gender when it applies to this particular case. Perhaps maybe you should consider that difficulty is present because the argument against gay marriage is really terrible and illogical and that makes it extremely hard to defend. In this case it is like beating your head against the wall because someone doesn't recognize your argument that 2+2=5 to be correct. When you are presented with rational explanations which you have to put your fingers in your ears and ignore them like some child who doesn't want to admit being wrong you might find that to be a sign that it might be time to recognize the truth instead of wishing it didn't exist because even god doesn't buy this crap anymore. We know that because the pope told us and he has a direct line to god if you believe in that sort of thing.



    Nice factually put together...oh wait, sorry, I initially mistook all that, a lot of words strung together calling my positions all sorts of names...well, I mistook that for real proof, real arguments..but when I pick through it...I find, instead, its just the rant, much like a little child stomping feet on the floor, screaming they want a cookie and they are gonna get it ...and I just must be a big ol meanie for not giving it to her.

    We on this side have already given away too many easy cookies...sorry...
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Wow, hard to argue with such "logic", logically illogical maybe. Yes it does hurt society, it does confuse children.
    It does not. That is a pure and bold faced lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    I am an intelligent human being and I know its unnatural.
    An intelligent human being would know two things. The first is that gay sex is perfectly natural and occurs all the time, and the reality is that gender based procreation is the mutation and abnormality because life started off reproducing asexually. The second thing you would know is that it is perfectly natural for you to be aroused sexually by a person of your gender. Yup, if we blindfolded you and had a person perform arousing sexual activity on you, you would become aroused. Worse yet if you were forced into sexual activity knowingly with a person of your gender through rape there is a pretty good possibility you would become physically aroused by the experience. It is completely natural to become aroused through sexual stimulation no matter what the gender giving it to you is. Now if those are things an educated person knows that are supported by studying nature, and things like the physical things that happen to many rape victims, what does that make you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Man and woman are naturally made to mate. Male and female parts naturally fit... how do we know that? Through the creation of beings just like us, other human beings, that is THE NATURAL WAY of continuing the species.
    Like I said, not all species. Many species are asexual, some can change genders, and sexual arousal and pleasure are practiced by many species without actual reproduction. Your argument is completely wrong because naturally we enjoy being aroused and just like many animals seek out those pleasant feelings even when we are not reproducing. Naturally sexually reproducing species do not always reproduce due to sexual activity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Homosexuality, and I should not have to explain this, does not lead to a continuation of the species. And it is the other way around, man can do anything to a woman that he can do to a man, he cannot do anything to a man that he could to a woman... he can impregnate her, he cannot do that to a him...think about it...
    Yes, we have, and we seem to be better at that thinking thing than you are given that by your own definition of intelligent you are not. You do not know what natural is. you seem quite unaware that sexual activity can be for pleasure and does not always result in offspring. Your view seems to say that sterile people should not have sex because it won't result in offspring. You seem to think the only reason for sex is reproduction which seems to indicate pleasure and fun are not valid reasons to do anything, and all we are here for is reproduction. You even seem to think homosexuality causes damage to society despite it not being the case, and a good argument can be made that straight people produce a much higher volume of problems like violence, overpopulation, and general crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    The viewpoint of the majority, whether religious or not, will be what rules, no matter what or how you think.
    If the majority was so stupid they thought 2=2=5 then according to you we would destroy math. You just divided by zero.

  8. #448
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post



    Nice factually put together...oh wait, sorry, I initially mistook all that, a lot of words strung together calling my positions all sorts of names...well, I mistook that for real proof, real arguments..but when I pick through it...I find, instead, its just the rant, much like a little child stomping feet on the floor, screaming they want a cookie and they are gonna get it ...and I just must be a big ol meanie for not giving it to her.

    We on this side have already given away too many easy cookies...sorry...
    I am sorry, I was just giving you back what you gave us. Would you like to actually make an argument or just call us all stupid because we do not share your ignorance?

  9. #449
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Like this topic started off as, those amendments are unconstitutional and are in the process of being destroyed through the courts. Precedent has already been set for declaring them unconstitutional, and if the supreme court demands standing to defend those amendments they won't be overturning those precedents. Just because a law is passed does not mean it is right. We had slavery, prohibition, bans on interracial marriage, and many other horrible laws we have risen above. If it being set down as law is your defense of those laws then it is fundamentally flawed.
    Courts are a tyranny of the minority...go through the people, see what the people want. We don't want what you are trying to pawn off on us, sorry...just don't...you can get as mad as you want. We the people are the ones who decided such things...

    These, for the most part, are not laws, they are amendments to the constitution of a state. The courts cannot overturn an amendment, that is the will of the people. The reason slavery was overturned is because a majority was for overturning slavery, study your history lady. Prohibition was overturned, properly, with another amendment to repeal it.

    Again, instead of just spouting, study first.
    "...But resist we much, we must and we will much, about that be committed..." --- the right Reverend Alfred Charles "Al" Shaprton, Jr.

  10. #450
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    i wonder if anybody will leave the country or take the bridge when equal rights for gays is established and legally the house is no longer divided?? I mean some people did go crazy when women and minorities were given equal rights.

    I wonder if their will be any boycotts which is fine by me or riots?
    so much anger, hate, hypocrisy and bigotry among SOME people
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