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Thread: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

  1. #361
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post

    Let's assume you were right and every single founder of the gay rights movement had been a card carrying member of NAMBLA. What exactly would that mean for the current gay rights movement and the push for same sex marriage? What would that have to do with anything?
    Like it or not NAMBLA is part of the gay rights movement and like it or not NAMBLA from the beginning have been "pushing" for same sex marriages.
    It is still an illogical association fallacy. You are trying to equate all gays and gay rights supporters as somehow having something to do with pedophilia because of one or two members of the gay rights movement who were a member of NAMBLA like 30 or so years ago. It is ridiculous and irrational.
    Once again you are wrong. I am not trying to equate all gays and gay rights supporters as somehow having something to do with pedophilia. I am connecting NAMBLA as part of the gay rights movement.


    Alliance Defense Fund has picked up just about every one of those cases, so I'm not sure where are this "legal expenses" nonsense is coming from. As far as "lawfare" it is called using the legal system as intended. It works the other way around. Christian groups have used it to defend religious liberty in several cases. It is just when it is used by gay rights groups it is suddenly something evil and nefarious.
    Once again you are mistaken. Though the Alliance Defense Fund has helped many in such cases, it isn't like the ADF rides into town on a white horse immediately. Some over unfair charges lose their jobs and livelihood , have already shelled out for an attorney, and there is no way to measure the mental stress and its adverse affects on these people being forced to endure such things. It is not the nature for a Christian to sue. Their teachings recommend every effort be exhausted before taking an issue to court to secure their constitutional rights. The lawfare that is being practiced by leftist judges who have been politically appointed are using law as a weapon of war to intimidate, terrorize, and silence dissent. By their skewed reading of the law they are trampling the rights of conscience and redefining it as discrimination.



    Forced? They chose to do so. And adoption is about what is in the best interest of children, not religious groups.
    The Catholic adoption agencies in Religious Conscience believe the best interest of children is to provide them with a mother and a father, not two moms or two dads. When they are no longer allowed to keep that standard then that is forcing them to shut their doors. It's also happening over Obamacare and the mandate forcing religious organizations and companies to provide health care that includes contraceptives and abortion pills which goes against their religious conscience. Instead of compromising their beliefs some are closing their doors such as soup kitchens, homeless shelters, works in prisons, and health clinics. Currently there are over 67 lawsuits against the federal government from such organizations/businesses fighting this mandate. A lot of costs for litigation involved that could have gone to feed, clothe, shelter the poor, and care for the sick. A huge loss to society.


    That simply is not true.
    Oh yes it is, parents took the school board to court over introducing homosexual material to their elementary school students. The federal judge, a political appointee, ruled against them.

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/arc...7/feb/07022604


    You need to check your facts.
    My facts are just fine.

  2. #362
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Like it or not NAMBLA is part of the gay rights movement and like it or not NAMBLA from the beginning have been "pushing" for same sex marriages.
    NAMBLA is NOT part of the "Gay Rights Movement." NAMBLA is a crackpot organization of mentally ill individuals who preach that their mental illness is comparable to homosexuality and should be accepted in the same way. No Gay Rights advocate supports the sexual abuse of children under the age of 14...NONE! Claiming a NAMBLA "gay rights activist" exists is based on your wholly incorrect assumption that male pedophiles who prey on pre-pubescent male children are also "homosexuals."

    To make such a comparison and then assert they are part of the Gay Rights movement is a gross misstatement of the facts, and a fallacious attempt to undermine the whole by asserting (falsely) a part is so immoral the whole must also be. At best you are making a weak analogy, at worst a fallacy of composition or a straw man argument.

    Try again!
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-09-13 at 07:39 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #363
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    Now it's "constitutional" rights of conscience... How do you figure that our great constitution allows you to discriminate based on "your" religious views...How about "my" religious views or "their" religious views?
    How did the lesbian couple figure that the state law overrides the constitutional religious protections of the bakery couple? They sure didn't mind discriminating against the bakery couples rights. Had they any tolerance at all, they would have just gone to another bakery down the street and not violated anybody's rights.

    This one issue makes it clear for all to see, the gay rights issues are not all about "ending discrimination" or "equal rights" it's about supporting and legitimizing discrimination that they chose.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

  4. #364
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    NAMBLA is NOT part of the "Gay Rights Movement." NAMBLA is a crackpot organization of mentally ill individuals who preach that their mental illness is comparable to homosexuality and should be accepted in the same way. No Gay Rights advocate supports the sexual abuse of children under the age of 14...NONE! Claiming a NAMBLA "gay rights activist" exists is based on your wholly incorrect assumption that male pedophiles who prey on pre-pubescent male children are also "homosexuals."

    To make such a comparison and then assert they are part of the Gay Rights movement is a gross misstatement of the facts, and a fallacious attempt to undermine the whole by asserting (falsely) a part is so immoral the whole must also be. At best you are making a weak analogy, at worst a fallacy of composition or a straw man argument.

    Try again!
    I didn't write the history for the modern gay rights movement. Harry Hay, the founder of the first gay rights organization was an advocate to include NAMBLA. Today NAMBLA for them is like the relative that nobody in the family wants to talk about. They have certainly distance themselves recently and since 2000 or so barred them from gay parades.
    Last edited by vesper; 09-09-13 at 08:08 AM.

  5. #365
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I didn't write the history for the modern gay rights movement. Harry Hay, the founder of the first gay rights organization was an advocate to include NAMBLA. Today NAMBLA for them is like the relative that nobody in the family wants to talk about. They have certainly distance themselves recently and since 2000 or so barred them from gay parades.
    Wow, he makes one speech referencing his own personal experience as a 14 yo actively seeking a sexual relationship with an older man, stating he KNEW what he was doing and didn't care; then saying that parent's of gay teens should be running interference for NAMBLA because other kids that age (13-15) may also feel that way. Ho hum...so he "supported" NAMBLA (although was never a member). This does not make NAMBLA a part of the Gay Rights movement.

    This is akin to pro-life advocates stating that since the founder of Planned Parenthood (Margaret Sanger) was a "racist," then anyone who currently supports Planned Parenthood is also a racist.

    Like I stated, at best a weak analogy, and at worst a fallacy of composition or a straw man argument.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-09-13 at 08:33 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  6. #366
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Wow, he makes one speech referencing his own personal experience as a 14 yo actively seeking a sexual relationship with an older man, stating he KNEW what he was doing and didn't care; then saying that parent's of gay teens should be running interference for NAMBLA because oher kids that age may also feel that way. Ho hum...so he "supported" NAMBLA (although was never a member).

    This is akin to pro-life advocates stating that since the founder of Planned Parenthood (Margaret Sanger) was a "racist," then anyone who currently supports Planned Parenthood is also a racist.

    Like I stated, at best a weak analogy, and at worst a straw man or composition fallacy.
    No sugar booger, Harry did more than make one speech. The support for NAMBLA can be found in his writings. There are photos of him attending a gay parade in California wearing a sign that states "NAMBLA WALKS WITH ME". I posted it earlier. It's a matter of fact. Do I think all gay activists are supportive of pedophilia and that Harry Hay speaks for them? Hell no. But the history of the movement is what it is.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    No sugar booger, Harry did more than make one speech. The support for NAMBLA can be found in his writings. There are photos of him attending a gay parade in California wearing a sign that states "NAMBLA WALKS WITH ME". I posted it earlier. It's a matter of fact. Do I think all gay activists are supportive of pedophilia and that Harry Hay speaks for them? Hell no. But the history of the movement is what it is.
    Sugar booger? LOL

    My point is that YOUR point has no value in this discussion. NAMBLA is not a "Gay Rights" organization, and has never actually been one, despite citing the actions of one gay activist.

    I am not gay and I was not overly fond of that orientation when I was younger. However, even I misunderstood the position of NAMBLA back when it first got started. From what little I knew I thought that it was just a group supporting lowering teenage age of consent laws for same-sex relationships. I had no idea that they advocated pre-pubescent sexual activities. Once that was clearly discovered, they lost all credibility with everyone except their own twisted fellow-travelers.

    Bringing up this "history" serves what purpose? It clearly has nothing to do with same-sex marriage. It is nothing but an attempt to denegrate the whole by the actions of a very very few.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-09-13 at 08:56 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #368
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Sugar booger? LOL

    My point is that YOUR point has no value in this discussion. NAMBLA is not a "Gay Rights" organization, and has never actually been one, despite citing the actions of one gay activist.

    I am not gay and I was not overly fond of that orientation when I was younger. However, even I misunderstood the position of NAMBLA back when it first got started. From what little I knew I thought that it was just a group supporting lowering teenage age of consent laws for same-sex relationships. I had no idea that they advocated pre-pubescent sexual activities. Once that was clearly discovered, they lost all credibility with everyone except their own twisted fellow-travelers.

    Bringing up this "history" serves what purpose? It clearly has nothing to do with same-sex marriage. It is nothing but an attempt to denegrate the whole by the actions of a very very few.
    The reason for bringing up NAMBLA in the first place was its one of several sexual orientations that most would never support. But we are finding out that the majority doesn't matter anymore. Take Prop 8 for example, the majority of the people voted against gay marriage but because the Democrat Governor and Democrat State Attorney along with gay activists on the 9th Circus Court of Appeals the majority didn't matter. Take abortion law as another example. The majority of the people at the time of Roe v Wade were strongly against abortion but the majority had no say and 9 political appointed justices over-ruled the wishes of the majority. The laws and opinions being written today on defining discrimination and redefining marriage will be tomorrow's nightmare. When you add to the new laws/opinions with the change in culture, lacking a moral compass, it is going to set it up for "other" sexual orientation advocacy groups under the guise of "civil rights" to have them granted. And it won't matter a damn if the people by the majority are against it. All it takes is for a judge or judges to read the laws and determine they have that right.

  9. #369
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The reason for bringing up NAMBLA in the first place was its one of several sexual orientations that most would never support. But we are finding out that the majority doesn't matter anymore. Take Prop 8 for example, the majority of the people voted against gay marriage but because the Democrat Governor and Democrat State Attorney along with gay activists on the 9th Circus Court of Appeals the majority didn't matter. Take abortion law as another example. The majority of the people at the time of Roe v Wade were strongly against abortion but the majority had no say and 9 political appointed justices over-ruled the wishes of the majority. The laws and opinions being written today on defining discrimination and redefining marriage will be tomorrow's nightmare. When you add to the new laws/opinions with the change in culture, lacking a moral compass, it is going to set it up for "other" sexual orientation advocacy groups under the guise of "civil rights" to have them granted. And it won't matter a damn if the people by the majority are against it. All it takes is for a judge or judges to read the laws and determine they have that right.
    It is a false analogy!! It's like me saying since certain pro-life members bomb abortion clinics killing workers there under the justification they are stopping murderers, therefore ALL pro-life members are murderous psycho-bombers. It's like me saying since some fundamentalist Christians think every single word in their particular version of the Bible is direct from God, therefore ALL Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago.

    Your point is not validated by using NAMBLA as the basis for any argument.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-09-13 at 09:56 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Like it or not NAMBLA is part of the gay rights movement and like it or not NAMBLA from the beginning have been "pushing" for same sex marriages.
    Part? Maybe, I don't know haven't research that. However, just because NAMBLA believes in gay rights does not mean the gay rights movement is the same as NAMBLA.

    I'll give you an example, if the KKK endorse a GOP candidate, does that mean the GOP candidate is a member of the KKK or even agrees with them?

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