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Thread: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

  1. #251
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Ah. The slippery slope logical fallacy. Always one of the favorites of those who try to debate the opposite side of the issue.
    You can call it a slippery slope logical fallacy all you want, but in LAW it has legs.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    You can call it a slippery slope logical fallacy all you want, but in LAW it has legs.
    Not at all. It's a slippery slope logical fallacy simply because you are attempting to compare two NON analogous situations. Standard easily dismissed attempts by the opposition in this matter.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #253
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Ah. The slippery slope logical fallacy. Always one of the favorites of those who try to debate the opposite side of the issue.
    How is defining a civil right based on "a strong personal desire" not going to open the door for other strong personal desires becoming rights? I have no problem with states changing their marriage laws to make them more popular and inclusive but I do have a problem with the concept of a federal judge mandating "fairness" based on anyone's strong personal desires.

    There is no more reason to have all states fall under the same (least restrictive) alcohol, drug, driving, tax or marriage laws. Some things are not federal powers without a constitutional amendment making them such.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    I explained it adequately. That you didn't get it isn't my fault.
    Racists (on either side) seldom, if ever, recognize that they are racists. Add to that a homosexual bias, and you have the explanation for the myopia.

  5. #255
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    How is defining a civil right based on "a strong personal desire" not going to open the door for other strong personal desires becoming rights? I have no problem with states changing their marriage laws to make them more popular and inclusive but I do have a problem with the concept of a federal judge mandating "fairness" based on anyone's strong personal desires.
    If one uses precedence to to encourage new laws, the new situation must match up. The ones mentioned do not.

    There is no more reason to have all states fall under the same (least restrictive) alcohol, drug, driving, tax or marriage laws. Some things are not federal powers without a constitutional amendment making them such.
    Well, I believe that you and I would fundamentally disagree on this.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not at all. It's a slippery slope logical fallacy simply because you are attempting to compare two NON analogous situations. Standard easily dismissed attempts by the opposition in this matter.
    The argument is justified reasoning and presents a valid analogy. Maybe not to one whose argument is based in emotion but in LAW is very probable.

  7. #257
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    The argument is justified reasoning and presents a valid analogy. Maybe not to one whose argument is based in emotion but in LAW is very probable.
    No, it does not have justified reasoning and is not a valid analogy. Maybe to someone whose argument is based on emotion, but not with logic.

    What analogy do you want to try, vesper? Polygamy? Polygamy is not a sexual orientation; homosexuality is. Polygamy has no research that demonstrates it's positive attributes to the health of the individuals, children, and society as a whole; homosexuality does. Want to try for NAMBLA/pedophilia? NAMBLA/pedophilia addresses children, who cannot consent; homosexuality/SSM addresses those who can consent. NAMBLA/pedophilia harms other people; homosexuality/SSM does not.

    See? VERY poor analogies which demonstrate how the slippery slope fallacy is in effect for your argument and fails to prove your position.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 09-08-13 at 10:04 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #258
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    As I recall the story of Lot involves him offering his two daughters to be raped by a crowd and later those daughters get him drunk so he will impregnate them. That isn't exactly what I would call a great story about sexual morality.
    No, it isn't at all. However, I didn't present it as a story of great sexual morality either.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The Bible does not actually state a specific sin that Sodom was struck down for but people like to interpret it as homosexual behavior...although it could just as easily been gang rape that God would have been unhappy about given the context. And Ezekiel seems to make it sound like failing to care for the poor might have been a larger issue.

    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. (Ezekiel 16.49–50 NASB)
    Well, the point isn't Sodom's destruction, or what specific sin or sins led to Sodom's destruction; moreover I never put forth homosexuality as *the* sin in that context either.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Abominations refer to many, many different sins. Love of money, dishonest trade, adultery, divorce, improper sacrifice, certain dietary habits, etc. are all referenced in the Bible as "abominations" so I'm not sure why people fixate on homosexuality somehow being the only one especially given the context of the verse.
    Yes they do, you are correct, the bible does refer to many things as "abominations." And while homosexuality is considered an abomination: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (Lev 18:22), and "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Lev 20:13), other behaviors are called abominations too. This is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    As for the definition of "sodomy" in context of laws, it has been used in the United States to refer to oral sex, anal sex, and sex with animals. That is just how the laws have been written. I think that is because sodomy took on a sense of "unnatural sex acts" tone in American history where anything other than vaginal sex was seen as unnatural. If you bother to look in most dictionaries that is how it is defined.
    I won't dispute that. But neither do I think I need to. If the assertion now is that, in the context of laws, that the definition of sodomy has been so watered down as to include loving heterosexual couples engaging in oral or anal sex - that ergo, sodomy in general is [now] a perfectly normal and loving thing between a husband and a wife, or between a man and a man, or between a woman and a woman - as was the original assertion that began this train of discussion, then that I do dispute, vehemently.

    I [first] dispute the efforts by whomever to broaden the definition of sodomy beyond its original and logical meaning - specifically to broaden it to include as you note "unnatural sex acts" let alone, bestiality. W/r to the bible, there is zero justification for doing this. None whatsoever.

    Second, in the English language (and I know you know this, just pointing out), we generally affix a "y" to the end of some words (e.g. sodom'y') to indicate likeness, or similarity - e.g. water'y' means "like water." In our context we're talking about "like sodom." Now, we only have one source - the bible - to learn what sodom "was like." Whatever the sins of sodom were, and as you correctly noted, they were many and varied, the SEXUAL sins of sodom, according to the bible, were singular, one. Homosexuality. Ezekiel 16 corroborates this, as does Genesis 19.

    Now, some have attempted the rather puerile assertion that sodomy refers strictly to "homosexual rape," ostensibly no doubt to be able later to assert that for other than cases of rape that homosexual sex is perfectly fine and normal. This is a very simple thing to refute inasmuch as we know the intent of the men of the city was to have sex with the men who had come to rescue Lot. That they were willing to do it forcibly I think goes without question; however, it would be difficult to refute that they would have relented if they'd found willing partners. They were driven strictly by their peculiar sexual desires, desires the bible calls abominable, which Leviticus 13 and Leviticus 20 corroborate.
    Who chimes "No Absolutes!" chimes absolutely.

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  9. #259
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Maybe not to one whose argument is based in emotion
    If ANYBODY here is operating under pure emotion it's you.

    There's absolutely no logical path one can take that equates same-sex marriage to pedophilia.

    That's 100% pure emotion. Nothing else.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    In reality, sodomy does not refer to homosexual acts, but homosexual RAPE. Consensual homosexual sex does not apply to the term... if one is going to use a biblical interpretation.

    So, either way sodomy is not about the homosexual orientation, or it is about sexual acts that can be performed regarding either orientation.
    < Heavy sigh > Little did I know I'd actually see the homosexual rape argument this soon. See my post #258 above.
    Who chimes "No Absolutes!" chimes absolutely.

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