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Thread: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is incorrect. You do not seem to know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. And if we are talking about normal in a statistical sense, sure. However, if we are talking about normal as in acceptable, society CERTAINLY decides what is normal and what is not.
    Well of course that's just nonsense. Homosexual sex is - and always has been - and always will be deviant behavior, perverse behavior if you prefer. And while societies may decide in general what's normal or acceptable (to them), they only do so within certain limits or boundaries otherwise unaffected by such caprices.

    I flat out reject the absurd notion of "sexual orientation" - let alone the false notion that society must somehow cater to the self-indulgent whims of a few who have allowed themselves to be given over to whatever desires their bodies might crave, for whatever reasons such cravings may exist. Similarly, I would reject the notion of "beverage orientation" - unless perhaps a group of us who crave beer be successful defining ourselves as a special class of citizen deserving of special rights and treatment by virtue of our lagered emotions.

    Homosexuality is gross self-indulgence. Nothing more. It's a behavior. It's perverse and deviant behavior. It's behavior that can be stopped and changed. And just because a few have given themselves over to it does not mean we need afford them special rights - shame and disgust, perhaps. Rights no - because sans the behavior, they have precisely the same rights right now the rest of us have.
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is more demonstrative of you not understanding the issue. Your comments "perverse" and "deviant" are nothing more than your opinions and completely valueless when discussing facts in regards to orientation and behavior.
    That's just absurd and you ought to know better than to attempt to paint homosexual behavior as somehow "normal." In fact, I would *love* to read how you would describe homosexual sex as normal. Two men having sex - baring the sordid details - explain how such an act is normal. Or two women having sex. Explain the normalcy of that, the non-deviancy of that, the non-perverseness of that.

    Frankly, let's let them keep their clothes on (yes, let's definitely do that) and perhaps you can explain the "normalcy" - the "non-deviancy" - or the non-perverseness of two men romantically kissing one another. Or two women.

    Or let's make it even tamer yet - explain the normalcy of two men romantically holding hands. We'll wait....

    Don't presume to lecture me on how I "don't understand" this issue. It has zip to do with understanding. We *all* understand it. It's just that some have abrogated their understanding in favor of a faux notion of "tolerance" and "compassion" - some have accepted and swallowed the lie that homosexual behavior is somehow "normal" - ignoring in the process the patently obvious. Some have discharged their sense of shame and disgust in favor of... I don't know... appeasement?

    It's disgusting and shameful and it's high time we returned to realizing and accepting that.
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And yet this has zero to do with what I said. 37 states are irrelevant to whether you or they have a right to be offended or not. "Them" not being fine with it is, as I said, irrelevant to the issue itself.
    Just because you cannot make the association, and it appears unless you are the one that says it, you simply cannot make that small “leap”…well, needless to say, that hardly means it does not apply.

    Your statement, “Those of you who are not fine with it are irrelevant. You have no right to not be offended.” is an inane position, one of, seemingly, almost halted cerebral development. When I replied that 37 states [ that being the vast majority, even a super majority of states] have either banned SSM by constitutional amendment or have laws that define marriage as only between one man and one woman, you feel that is irrelevant? A supermajority of American states is irrelevant?

    Then you want to put forth a childlike position of whether or not one has a right to be offended or not [whoever brought up taking offense? Only you ]. This is not about sticking out one’s tongue and saying, “nah nahh na-nah nah”, this is all about keeping a sane, moral and sound societal system, keeping deviance from becoming associated closely, or placed on an equal basis, with that which is normal…

    So where to you get your straw man of “taking offense”, anyhow?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    From a statistical standpoint, this is true. However, normal has other definitions.
    It is far beyond just the statistical standpoint. This is far from normal, it is far from desired, it is far from beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is pretty irrelevant and demonstrates that you do not understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior.
    We note that your calls of irrelevance are usually themselves pretty much irrelevant. While you are wrong about my particular understanding, that distinction in itself is irrelevant to what we are talking about. Abnormal sexual behavior, abnormal sexual preference and abnormal sexual orientation should have no sound basis in being a determinate in societal outcomes, especially if we want those to be favorable outcomes.



    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, if history is any determinant of the present, it is about time for me to point out how you have lost... which you have and which you usually do when debating me.
    Well, there we go, there is the newest in a long line of false proclamations, a laughable judge of one’s own specious position's greatness…special, very special.
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  4. #1074
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    ...says those who would promote homosexual marriage.
    I don't promote Same Sex Marriage... I promote Equal Rights and the enforcement of Anti-Discrimination Laws.

    A class of self-indulgent individuals perhaps.
    A class of self-indulgent individuals whose self-indulgence is characterized by their choice in sex partners.
    Just as the class of self-indulgent individuals whose self-indulgence is characterized by their choice in sex partners: Heterosexuals

    A class marked as distinctive for their peculiar behaviors, yes.
    There are all sorts of people that have peculiar behaviours... yes. Do you advocate treating young men attracted to much older women as a lesser class as well?

    That's demonstrably absurd; it's a lie containing no more truth than speeders claiming they speed because they have no choice. One might legitimately argue emotional or psychological trauma as a reason, but in the end it boils down to choice, a choice to give in to self-indulgent urges; and rather than acknowledge the truth, they've fabricated a web of lies to rationalize their shame - rather than be ashamed they've become proud of their deviant self-indulgences - so proud that now they want their behaviors given special treatment by society; they want - nay they demand society "accept" their deviant behavior as "normal" and they demand society treat them as "normal" who engage in such deviant behaviors.
    You don't talk to many homosexuals, do you? I have never met any, as far as I know, that are ashamed. They embrace who they are and have talked openly and honestly about it. If you are an armchair quarterback reading hatred and never actually experiencing the people that you despise then you are ignorantly spouting bull****. I know... you have gay acquaintances... right.

    And admittedly, society at large - including people like yourself - has bought their lies, accepted behavior as "normal" which is deviant, accepted self-indulgence as a good thing - regardless how depraved the indulgences are allowed to go.
    What is depraved about their lives? Your ignorant hatred is depraved... of that I am certain.

    Now, I call that depraved -- both the grossly self-indulgent behaviors as well as the societal acceptance of the grossly self-indulgent behaviors. You choose to call that bigotry. Only that's not your choice. Instead you made the choice to call that which is bad, good; that which is deviant, normal; that which is self-indulgent, "loving." You've abdicated your ability to choose as a consequence; you must call it bigotry. You have no choice. By yielding to their lies, by accepting them and denying the truth, you've become as self-indulgent as they - and how bitter the irony must be once you admit you too had "no choice."
    Nope... not at all... you beliefs are bigoted. Pretty simple actually.
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yeah, I guess I do too, I just wonder if we don't take the necessary time to deliberate whether or not long term these laws make sense...I mean, we seem to knee jerk a lot of laws out there whether they conflict with others or not, then we set up a premise of what laws to enforce without ever striking the old laws off the books.
    From what I see, things tend to take quite some time. Let's look at this issue, for example. Homosexuality was declassified as a disorder by the APA in 1973. Only NOW, 40 years later are folks starting to support SSM in majorities. That's pretty long for societal values to change enough for laws to be placed in effect.

    This along with, on the Federal side, not doing things constitutionally, lead to tyranny.
    Not sure I agree, but I tend to see the Constitution as being a fairly flexible document.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    Well of course that's just nonsense. Homosexual sex is - and always has been - and always will be deviant behavior, perverse behavior if you prefer. And while societies may decide in general what's normal or acceptable (to them), they only do so within certain limits or boundaries otherwise unaffected by such caprices.
    And that's just nonsense and shows that I am correct. You do not understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Further, you do not understand the definitions of deviant nor perverse behaviors. This demonstrates the depth of your lack of understanding of this issue. You do not know what basic definitions mean. Further, you are incorrect about how societies determined what is acceptable and normal to them. We currently see a majority of people who see homosexuality as acceptable and normal... not only evidence by polls, but be the increase in legislative support.

    In other words, everything you wrote above is incorrect.

    I flat out reject the absurd notion of "sexual orientation"
    Your rejection of reality does not alter reality itself. Sorry.

    - let alone the false notion that society must somehow cater to the self-indulgent whims of a few who have allowed themselves to be given over to whatever desires their bodies might crave, for whatever reasons such cravings may exist. Similarly, I would reject the notion of "beverage orientation" - unless perhaps a group of us who crave beer be successful defining ourselves as a special class of citizen deserving of special rights and treatment by virtue of our lagered emotions.
    Nothing here of substance to reply to.

    Homosexuality is gross self-indulgence. Nothing more. It's a behavior. It's perverse and deviant behavior. It's behavior that can be stopped and changed.
    Further demonstration that you are uneducated on this topic. As stated before, you don't know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior, nor do you understand basic definitions regarding this issue. I would suggest that you inform yourself of some of the basics, but I suspect you are uninterested in doing so.

    And just because a few have given themselves over to it does not mean we need afford them special rights - shame and disgust, perhaps. Rights no - because sans the behavior, they have precisely the same rights right now the rest of us have.
    And this too is incorrect. Basically, your entire post was one long post of inaccuracies. You didn't get one thing correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #1077
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    That's just absurd and you ought to know better than to attempt to paint homosexual behavior as somehow "normal." In fact, I would *love* to read how you would describe homosexual sex as normal. Two men having sex - baring the sordid details - explain how such an act is normal. Or two women having sex. Explain the normalcy of that, the non-deviancy of that, the non-perverseness of that.
    Easy. Homosexuality is, in our society overall, an accepted differentiation in sexual orientation. Beyond that, you once again show your lack of education on sexual issues; you don't know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Now, since homosexuality would be normal, as it is an accepted difference in sexuality by society, neither deviant nor perverse would apply, as being outside acceptable standards for society must apply to each. Both words are value judgments, hence they are beliefs, not facts. I will assist you by reminding you that these are just your unfounded opinions whenever you post them.

    [Frankly, let's let them keep their clothes on (yes, let's definitely do that) and perhaps you can explain the "normalcy" - the "non-deviancy" - or the non-perverseness of two men romantically kissing one another. Or two women.
    Still can't differentiate between a behavior and orientation, can you?

    Or let's make it even tamer yet - explain the normalcy of two men romantically holding hands. We'll wait....
    STILL can't differentiate between a behavior and orientation, can you?

    Don't presume to lecture me on how I "don't understand" this issue. It has zip to do with understanding.
    I don't presume. You DON'T understand the issue. You prove it with every comment you make.

    We *all* understand it. It's just that some have abrogated their understanding in favor of a faux notion of "tolerance" and "compassion" - some have accepted and swallowed the lie that homosexual behavior is somehow "normal" - ignoring in the process the patently obvious. Some have discharged their sense of shame and disgust in favor of... I don't know... appeasement?
    Let's see... opinions and appeal to emotion logical fallacy. Not a shred of accuracy or information.

    It's disgusting and shameful and it's high time we returned to realizing and accepting that.
    And more of the same. Let me know when you have any information or actually understand the issue whatsoever. Thus far you have shown to have neither.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #1078
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaugingcatenate View Post
    Just because you cannot make the association, and it appears unless you are the one that says it, you simply cannot make that small “leap”…well, needless to say, that hardly means it does not apply.
    No, since it doesn't exist, that's why it doesn't apply.

    Your statement, “Those of you who are not fine with it are irrelevant. You have no right to not be offended.” is an inane position, one of, seemingly, almost halted cerebral development.
    No, what it states is that your appeal to emotion and your "feelings" really don't matter if we are discussing facts and information.

    When I replied that 37 states [ that being the vast majority, even a super majority of states] have either banned SSM by constitutional amendment or have laws that define marriage as only between one man and one woman, you feel that is irrelevant? A supermajority of American states is irrelevant?
    What was it 10 years ago? I consider that differentiation relevant.

    Then you want to put forth a childlike position of whether or not one has a right to be offended or not [whoever brought up taking offense? Only you ]. This is not about sticking out one’s tongue and saying, “nah nahh na-nah nah”, this is all about keeping a sane, moral and sound societal system, keeping deviance from becoming associated closely, or placed on an equal basis, with that which is normal…
    This is you not understanding that morality is relative and your morality only applies to you. It's about what society determines as moral and what society determines as normal and acceptable. And, since society is slowly changing towards an acceptance of SSM (51% now support it), your offense at this is irrelevant.

    So where to you get your straw man of “taking offense”, anyhow?
    No straw man. A response to you saying that "the rest of us are not fine with it". You being "fine" or "not fine" with it is irrelevant. You have no right to not be offended.

    It is far beyond just the statistical standpoint. This is far from normal, it is far from desired, it is far from beneficial.

    We note that your calls of irrelevance are usually themselves pretty much irrelevant. While you are wrong about my particular understanding, that distinction in itself is irrelevant to what we are talking about. Abnormal sexual behavior, abnormal sexual preference and abnormal sexual orientation should have no sound basis in being a determinate in societal outcomes, especially if we want those to be favorable outcomes.
    And we note that when you cannot refute an argument... the fact that you either do not understand the difference between sexual behavior and sexual orientation, or the fact that you DO know the difference but discussing that difference would sink your argument further into oblivion, you tend to sink into appeals to emotion. As soon as you use the word "should" you lose, since should is nothing but an unsubstantiated opinion. Further, you sink into MORE inaccuracy when you use the term "abnormal" since this term is a value judgment. Finally, your final statement is incorrect, as we already know that SSM produces favorable outcomes.

    In other words, your comments above are nothing but value judgments, logical fallacies, unsubstantiated opinions, and inaccuracies. Quite a feat for one paragraph.

    Well, there we go, there is the newest in a long line of false proclamations, a laughable judge of one’s own specious position's greatness…special, very special.
    See, you try to be condescending, but the problem is you have no substance to back you; which is why it comes across as being laughable. Just as I did in this post, each and every argument you make, I easily show to be silly, false, or demonstrates a significant lack of knowledge on the issue. Now, you can feel free to keep trying, but I suspect these kinds of defeats will keep happening to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #1079
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And that's just nonsense and shows that I am correct. You do not understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Further, you do not understand the definitions of deviant nor perverse behaviors. This demonstrates the depth of your lack of understanding of this issue. You do not know what basic definitions mean. Further, you are incorrect about how societies determined what is acceptable and normal to them. We currently see a majority of people who see homosexuality as acceptable and normal... not only evidence by polls, but be the increase in legislative support.

    In other words, everything you wrote above is incorrect.

    Your rejection of reality does not alter reality itself. Sorry.

    Nothing here of substance to reply to.

    Further demonstration that you are uneducated on this topic. As stated before, you don't know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior, nor do you understand basic definitions regarding this issue. I would suggest that you inform yourself of some of the basics, but I suspect you are uninterested in doing so.

    And this too is incorrect. Basically, your entire post was one long post of inaccuracies. You didn't get one thing correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Easy. Homosexuality is, in our society overall, an accepted differentiation in sexual orientation. Beyond that, you once again show your lack of education on sexual issues; you don't know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Now, since homosexuality would be normal, as it is an accepted difference in sexuality by society, neither deviant nor perverse would apply, as being outside acceptable standards for society must apply to each. Both words are value judgments, hence they are beliefs, not facts. I will assist you by reminding you that these are just your unfounded opinions whenever you post them.

    Still can't differentiate between a behavior and orientation, can you?

    STILL can't differentiate between a behavior and orientation, can you?

    I don't presume. You DON'T understand the issue. You prove it with every comment you make.

    Let's see... opinions and appeal to emotion logical fallacy. Not a shred of accuracy or information.

    And more of the same. Let me know when you have any information or actually understand the issue whatsoever. Thus far you have shown to have neither.
    Blah, blah, blah - says you. You accuse me of lacking "information," employing logical fallacies, being inaccurate and other asinine blather yet are yourself incapable of providing a single shred of the same in support of your ill-informed... opinion.

    Moreover, you can't even provide the simplest - the SIMPLEST of explanations in support of your opinion - to explain how homosexual behavior is "normal." Be it the sex itself, the romantic kissing, or the romantic holding of hands - you can't show how that's normal. In fact, you won't even try. You just dodged the issue - dodged it because we both know your only "proof" is nothing more than having accepted what homosexuals say about themselves and their behavior.

    Be honest - that's YOUR only source of "proof" isn't it? What they say about themselves and their behavior - and you unflinchingly accept it. Why?

    You chide me for not knowing the difference between orientation and behavior, multiple times. And that after I was very clear that I don't believe in the homosexual's rationalization of their behavior. I don't believe in "orientation" - it's an excuse to justify their behavior. Yet when I try to explain that, you come back with the repetitious snide quip that I don't know the difference. I'll say it yet again, if that'll help - I DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE ORIENTATION EXCUSE.

    And do you want to know something - not even the researchers in this field are capable of defining it, let alone applying it consistently - whether it's attraction, behavior, or "identity." And do you want to know why? Because those their data, data gathered from interviews, they acknowledge is consistently inconsistent. So not even the respondents themselves know.

    ...but of course, you do.

    You chide me for my beliefs being just that - beliefs, that I am in your words "uneducated" and my opinions are "unfounded" - moreover, you give yourself an allowance for dismissing them all going forward were I to post further on the topic. What if they are beliefs? So what? Are you suggesting your "knowledge" of the issue isn't? Where in all the opining of your own is a shred of something one might consider as other than your own beliefs. What makes your belief right and mine wrong? What homosexuals say?

    ...and all this without a shred of "proof," without an attempt to explain, without even the slightest attempt on your own to provide what you accuse me of not providing. The ONLY "proof" you've provided thus far is to point to your opinion of my opinions and say it's "nonsense and shows that I'm correct."

    In other words - your only argument is your own appeal to my comments as proof that yours are correct. That's nifty.
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  10. #1080
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    < snip >
    You don't talk to many homosexuals, do you? I have never met any, as far as I know, that are ashamed. They embrace who they are and have talked openly and honestly about it. If you are an armchair quarterback reading hatred and never actually experiencing the people that you despise then you are ignorantly spouting bull****. I know... you have gay acquaintances... right.


    Ok - premise; you've never met any homosexuals, as far as you know, that are ashamed.
    Question: how would you know, if you knew... as far as you knew that they were ashamed? How? Would they tell you? "Oh Bodhisattva, I'm so ashamed..."
    Of COURSE they "embrace who they are and talk openly and honestly about it." Good grief, what do you think the whole point of the homosexual movement has been about these past 50 years? Coming out to stay hidden? I mean, the hallmark of their movement is centered around being proud of how they behave, isn't it? So seriously, how would you know?

    Where do you think a sense of shame comes from? It comes from guilt; it is the attendant emotion that accompanies guilt. Take the guilt away and so too goes any shame associated with it.

    That, in a nutshell is what the goal of the homosexual movement has been these past 50 years - exorcising the guilt from their behavior so that rather than feel ashamed by what they do, they can be free of any guilt and shame and behave pridefully about it instead. Shame is a powerful emotion - USUALLY its power is used to prevent one from behaving in a guilty way. What the homosexuals have done, are doing, is just the opposite - they are avoiding shame not by avoiding guilty behavior, they are denying the guilt of the behavior. They are eradicating the guilt. So back to your premise - live under such propaganda for long and its only natural one will be tempted to feel their behavior is "normal."

    W/r to "knowing homosexuals," LOL - I'll just say this: there was a time I would hump anything with two legs that had an orifice or a protrusion. I know a little about what I speak. When I say it's "gross self indulgence" that's precisely what it is - and I don't need to go to some liberal arts college to get "educated" on the fineries of self-indulgence. Been there, done that. All manner of attempts have been made by those thus engaged to make such behavior acceptable to society, cleansed of any shame or guilt - but none of it changes the underlying truth about the behavior or its deviancy. I know it's a choice. I know it's a behavior. And I know one can change both.
    Who chimes "No Absolutes!" chimes absolutely.

    zoom zoom

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