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Thread: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyLarry View Post
    Are you saying that heterosexuals and homosexuals are equals? Under what common designation do they fall that would grant a right to equal access to marriage?
    Well, first one must define the purpose of marriage. What does marriage actually do? It provides a healthy place in which to rear children; it increases the health of the individuals; it creates more stability both socially and financially. All these things word towards societal improvement. In these areas, heterosexuality and homosexuality are equal.

    OK, let me refute each, one a time.

    1) You could say that both groups are human beings.

    ....but so are individuals over 18 and individuals under 18. Yet they are not granted equal access to marriage. So that alone doesn't grant equal rights to marriage. Pedophiles fall into this category.
    False analogy. Those under 18 cannot consent to marriage. There is no evidence that those who marry under 18 provide any of the benefits that I stated above. In fact, there is evidence that the opposite is true.

    2) you could claim that both groups are equally consenting adults.

    ...but that wouldn't alone grant equal rights to marriage because first degree relatives are in this category and can't get married either.
    False analogy. There is no evidence that this kind of marriage would provide the benefits that I stated above. Further, we also know that this kind of union has two problems: if procreation occurs, birth defects are more likely; and it then becomes a dual relationship which is problematic as to which relationship applies.

    3) you could claim that two homosexuals are in love like two heterosexuals would be.

    ..... Yet love alone can't grant equal rights to marriage. You and your (insert family member/pet/innate object here) may feel you are in love but cannot get married.
    False analogy. Innate objects and pets can neither consent nor do they provide the same benefits as described above. Family members have already been addressed.

    4) you can claim that two heterosexuals can create a loving family unit and raise children who need a home.

    ...yet again, polygamists and 1st degree relatives among others could fall into this category.
    False analogy. Relatives have already been addressed. Evidence shows that polygamy does not provide the same kinds of benefits that I mentioned above. In fact, polygamy has been shown to do the opposite in many cases.

    5) you could claim that homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality in that each is simply a sexual orientation one has the option to choose from.

    ...yet orientation is simply an affinity of one thing for another. Homosexuality is a behavior.
    No, homosexuality is an orientation, it is most certainly NOT a behavior.

    If you were to infer that homosexuality is an orientation then you would also have to concede that other orientations are on equal ground with homosexuality based on the simple category of alternative orientation. This would include incest, beastiality, and pedophilia. All of which are sexual orientations that without accompanied behavior are legal.
    Incorrect. There is no conclusive evidence that either pedophilia or bestiality is an orientation. There is conclusive evidence that homosexuality, as an orientation, is on a par with heterosexuality. Beyond that, neither minors nor animals can consent, nor do these unions reap the same benefits. This is yet another false analogy.

    Everything you mentioned was a false analogy because they were not equal.

    So, it appears that one cannot claim a right to marriage by simply being two (or more) consenting human beings (even of adult age) of a certain orientation who are in love and feel they can raise a healthy family. ...unless you are willing to grant marriage rights to a host of other groups such as polygamists, first degree relatives, pedophiles, animal lovers (you know the kind I'm talking about ) etc.

    This is why it's not a slippery slope.
    Actually, because they examples you gave are false analogies, that is exactly why the slippery slope apples. No causation and not analogous.

    Here's another premise. Heterosexuals are different than homosexuals on a basic concept. All people (aside from genetic malformations like hermaphroditism) are physically heterosexuals.
    No they aren't. They are either male or female.

    That is they are either physiologically male or female with corresponding parts. These parts are physiologically intended to attract to and complement the parts of the opposite sex. This is the intended design of our biology in order to propagate our species. Heterosexual behavior is the term given to this congruence. Homosexual behavior is a deviation from this and is an opposite behavior than our physiological biology intended. Heterosexual behavior is a congruence with our biology and homosexual behavior is an incongruence with our biology.
    If our biology afforded a pathway for homosexuality to create genetic offspring then society could consider these two things simple sexual alternatives. But they are not.
    You do not understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Further, procreation is irrelevant to marriage. Firstly, because it is not a requirement and secondly because homosexuals want to procreate and many do. Therefore, everything you said above does not apply to your argument.

    Heterosexuality is a different entity completely than homosexual behavior.
    You are again confusing sexual orientation and sexual behavior. These are two different things.

    So I don't see how separate but equal is even an argument here as homosexuality is not equal with heterosexuality.
    Pretty much everything you said was wrong. The information I gave shows the equality.

    Therefore if heterosexuals create a social construct called marriage it is within their prerogative to define it as being between a man and a woman. (On the way that any group rationally discriminates it's commonalities for participation) Outside groups have no legitimate argument to force their way into it without also conceding the door to Pandora's box.
    Therefore, since homosexuality and heterosexuality are similar in nearly every aspect that defines a relationship and is equally beneficial in each criterion that is a reason for marraige, there is no reason that both should not be called marriage because of these similarities; and because none of the other unions mentioned fits either of these, associating any of them as an offshoot of SSM becoming legal is a slippery slope logical fallacy.


    I'm looking for a real discussion on this subject.
    I think I gave you one.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    Homosexuality is deviant sexual behavior. It has NOTHING to do with "societal norms" as if society could capriciously decree what is normal and what isn't.
    This is incorrect. You do not seem to know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. And if we are talking about normal in a statistical sense, sure. However, if we are talking about normal as in acceptable, society CERTAINLY decides what is normal and what is not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    Probably because homosexuals and their friends are pushing so hard to remove the stigma and shame of the perverse and deviant behavior - and people are pushing back as hard or harder.
    This is more demonstrative of you not understanding the issue. Your comments "perverse" and "deviant" are nothing more than your opinions and completely valueless when discussing facts in regards to orientation and behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is incorrect. You do not seem to know the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. And if we are talking about normal in a statistical sense, sure. However, if we are talking about normal as in acceptable, society CERTAINLY decides what is normal and what is not.
    Just a technical point....If we leave it to "society" to decide what is acceptable under law, by bending to the whims of changing attitudes, and without amendment, or consistency.... don't we do damage to the rule of law?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Just a technical point....If we leave it to "society" to decide what is acceptable under law, by bending to the whims of changing attitudes, and without amendment, or consistency.... don't we do damage to the rule of law?
    Not really. This is pretty much what occurs. Societal norms dictate how laws are created.
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    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not really. This is pretty much what occurs. Societal norms dictate how laws are created.
    I know, and maybe that is not the best way forward?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I know, and maybe that is not the best way forward?
    I think it is. In general, I support laws reflecting societal values.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #1068
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I think it is. In general, I support laws reflecting societal values.
    Yeah, I guess I do too, I just wonder if we don't take the necessary time to deliberate whether or not long term these laws make sense...I mean, we seem to knee jerk a lot of laws out there whether they conflict with others or not, then we set up a premise of what laws to enforce without ever striking the old laws off the books.

    This along with, on the Federal side, not doing things constitutionally, lead to tyranny.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yeah, I guess I do too, I just wonder if we don't take the necessary time to deliberate whether or not long term these laws make sense...I mean, we seem to knee jerk a lot of laws out there whether they conflict with others or not, then we set up a premise of what laws to enforce without ever striking the old laws off the books.

    This along with, on the Federal side, not doing things constitutionally, lead to tyranny.
    If you guys keep using that word it's going to lose all meaning.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  10. #1070
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    Re: On gay marriage, America's house may not stay divided for long [W:29, 210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    If you guys keep using that word it's going to lose all meaning.
    Oh, you mean like "racist"?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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