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Thread: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You seem to know your stuff,
    Unfortunately I do regarding these types of subjects (former SFO).
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    so I'll ask - let's say we have perfect conditions to use sarin in. What would you say would be the minimal amount of sarin needed to kill 1400 people?
    Given perfect conditions, people concentrated in an area, as they were in the area attacked (like most overpopulated cities), optimum dispersion and secondary exposure which would be expected... the same amount that would fit into a canister the size of an 2 liter soda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Is that an amount that would be easily obtainable by well funded rebel forces?
    They wouldn't even have to be well funded. Sarin is easy and very cheap to manufacture. Any person with rudimentary knowledge in pesticides (an educated farmer for instance) can produce it, or get similar pesticides that mimic the effects of Sarin. He may kill himself in the attempt, but more than likely, if he was careful, he would succeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I ask because I admit my knowledge of what you're discussing is a little bit above my knowledge on the subject.
    That's not something to be ashamed of. My knowledge comes from preparing to operate in areas under attack by these agents as well as locating and rendering these type agents inert.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    If it is easily obtainable by rebel forces, who would be the most likely to be supplying them with it?
    Saudi Arabia more than likely. Just pick the Sunni majority governed Middle East countries, that hate Iran, and you have your list.

    Thank you for the opportunity to respond. You asked very good questions.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Three different theatres of operation and they are still running around causing problems?
    Beaudreaux sure seems like a waste of time or were you guys not allowed to deal with them properly?
    or are they just an infestation that will never go away and the best we can hope for is to keep their numbers down?
    Inquiring minds wanna know

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Unfortunately I do regarding these types of subjects (former SFO). Given perfect conditions, people concentrated in an area, as they were in the area attacked (like most overpopulated cities), optimum dispersion and secondary exposure which would be expected... the same amount that would fit into a canister the size of an 2 liter soda. They wouldn't even have to be well funded. Sarin is easy and very cheap to manufacture. Any person with rudimentary knowledge in pesticides (an educated farmer for instance) can produce it, or get similar pesticides that mimic the effects of Sarin. He may kill himself in the attempt, but more than likely, if he was careful, he would succeed. That's not something to be ashamed of. My knowledge comes from preparing to operate in areas under attack by these agents as well as locating and rendering these type agents inert. Saudi Arabia more than likely. Just pick the Sunni majority governed Middle East countries, that hate Iran, and you have your list.

    Thank you for the opportunity to respond. You asked very good questions.
    The reason I ask this is because of an attack I did some research on back in the day. You probably know about the Tokyo subway attacks a few years ago. They used sarin too and those attacks were in heavily concentrated places (subways) yet they only killed about 15-20 people. Obviously, wind was not a factor in the subway - however the concentration of people is still there. So what exactly do you think made a difference in Syria? Was it the possibility that the wind carried the sarin gas or was it the amount used?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryOldGuy View Post
    Three different theatres of operation and they are still running around causing problems?
    Beaudreaux sure seems like a waste of time or were you guys not allowed to deal with them properly?
    or are they just an infestation that will never go away and the best we can hope for is to keep their numbers down?
    Inquiring minds wanna know
    Three words: Rules Of Engagement.

    The truth is, you cannot defeat a zealot form of a religion. You cannot win if your fighting people that are not afraid to die (martyrdom, virgins in heaven, etc.).

    Education is the key to enlightenment. In many parts of the world, Al Qaeda feeds on the uneducated, and extreme instances (Taliban), they have outlawed education outside of their own teachings. It's an indoctrination.

    For every one of them that we would send to martyrdom, ten more would stand up behind him. And leaving them alone doesn't work either. Even if the US pulled out of the Middle East all together, they would still try to kill us because it's part of their Fatwa to impose their beliefs on the entire world, by force and subjugation. Kill all the Infidels. That is their purpose in life.

    In Somalia, they almost eradicated all non-Sunni's which created the famine. The world went into Somalia to feed the starving, but ended up being attacked by Al Qaeda because we were saving the Infidels.

    We cannot win. We can only contain.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    I'm not saying that's what happened. But the Syrian government was winning the war and attacking only civilians only galvanized the world against them. That seems like an awfully boneheaded move. I wondered why the UN wasn't acting, it may be because this isn't as clear cut as Obama is making it out to be.
    As I pointed out on other occasion, it seems impossible to know who did what to whom as long as the war obscures the battleground. Relying on information of this type as a casus belli is not a good idea as G W Bush showed us.

    I do not think we should stop Assad on the chemical weapons alone. He started to shoot at demonstrators and the result is is over 100.000 dead and 2.000.000 refugees. He was not able to maintain control of his country and this is destabilizing the region. His government is not fulfilling the basic requirements of legitimacy towards its people and its neighbors.

    This is enough reason to justify his removal.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    As I pointed out on other occasion, it seems impossible to know who did what to whom as long as the war obscures the battleground. Relying on information of this type as a casus belli is not a good idea as G W Bush showed us.

    I do not think we should stop Assad on the chemical weapons alone. He started to shoot at demonstrators and the result is is over 100.000 dead and 2.000.000 refugees. He was not able to maintain control of his country and this is destabilizing the region. His government is not fulfilling the basic requirements of legitimacy towards its people and its neighbors.

    This is enough reason to justify his removal.
    Assad is up for re-election in 2014. Why not get a cease fire now, give amnesty for past actions and start enforcing murder, torture, kidnapping and political arrest charges. The US can assist with prosecuting crimes by FSA and the Assad regime.

    Stop the killing now, and help Syrians have fair elections in 2014? Support Democracy?


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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The reason I ask this is because of an attack I did some research on back in the day. You probably know about the Tokyo subway attacks a few years ago. They used sarin too and those attacks were in heavily concentrated places (subways) yet they only killed about 15-20 people. Obviously, wind was not a factor in the subway - however the concentration of people is still there. So what exactly do you think made a difference in Syria? Was it the possibility that the wind carried the sarin gas or was it the amount used?
    In Tokyo, the Sarin was hampered by the contained environment. Sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true. In the subway, the Sarin was "contained" and not able to disperse as well had it been in an open air environment.

    In Syria, it was more than likely an air burst (hitting a building high up and exploding), or it could have been an aerosolized disbursement (like from an aircraft or fogger on the ground). The aerosolized scenario is not very likely. What I think happened, unlike the other previous events in the region, the rocket, or mortar shell hit a building either on the roof or on the exterior of a high floor, allowing the gas to disperse and spread as it slowly, settled to the ground. The vapor density is about 4:1 to air, so it sinks. The specific gravity of Sarin is almost exactly the same as water, which means it can mix with water. And although the boiling point is above 300 degrees F, the Vapor Pressure is 2.9 at the average atmospheric temperature (about 75-80 F) which means that it will off-gas very quickly, allowing it to evaporate and spread quickly.

    In Tokyo, the subterranean environment, the moisture in the air could have "captured" a lot of the gasses as they evaporated and reduced the dispersion potential. I remember too much about that particular case, other than how they attempted to deploy it, since we have forces there. Most of my exposure to these agents was in SW Asia, Northern Africa and the South Pacific. My experience in the South Pacific is what leads me to my conjecture above. Sarin is not very effective in Humid environments, and that's why Germany stopped using it in WWII and switched back to Mustard Gas or the more notorious Zyklon.

    In the heat and arid to semi-arid environment of the Middle East, it's a very effective agent, in that the environment helps to disperse the agent more rapidly and geographically extensively.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The reason I ask this is because of an attack I did some research on back in the day. You probably know about the Tokyo subway attacks a few years ago. They used sarin too and those attacks were in heavily concentrated places (subways) yet they only killed about 15-20 people. Obviously, wind was not a factor in the subway - however the concentration of people is still there. So what exactly do you think made a difference in Syria? Was it the possibility that the wind carried the sarin gas or was it the amount used?

    Maybe the FSA got word of a pending Sarin Gas attack, and decided to make the gas attack more lethal than originally intended by Assad? Maybe when the rockets were fired, the rebels released the Sarin gas they had, which added to the numbers of dead.

    Seems self-defeating for FSA to kill people in FSA territory, but that is the logic of Al Qaida, so we need to put aside logic, to see Truth. The more people dead, the more upset the West. False Flag events are so common, that you have to look for the false flag first. 9-11 may have been a combination event, with explosives added by instigators for a worse outcome, and the airliners were just a trigger. Instigators are real.



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    Last edited by Gladiator; 09-04-13 at 03:52 AM.
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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    help Syrians have fair elections in 2014? Support Democracy?
    Wow that hurted my brain

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    Maybe the FSA got word of a pending Sarin Gas attack, and decided to make the gas attack more lethal than originally intended by Assad? Maybe when the rockets were fired, the rebels released the Sarin gas they had, which added to the numbers of dead.

    Seems self-defeating for FSA to kill people in FSA territory, but that is the logic of Al Qaida, so we need to put aside logic, to see Truth. The more people dead, the more upset the West. False Flag events are so common, that you have to look for the false flag first. 9-11 may have been a combination event, with explosives added by instigators for a worse outcome, and the airliners were just a trigger. Instigators are real.



    //
    So far the evidence is that the FSA and Al Qaeda are not the same, and are in fact at odds with each other as well.

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