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Thread: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryOldGuy View Post
    So who has the lowdown, the straight skinny, the real deal info on exactly how this attack was carried out?
    Did they just stuff a dude in a MOP suit load him up with pralidoxime & atropine have him jump on a car outfitted with canisters
    and have him drive down the street? Where's the definitive report on what actually happened? Oh you say we don't really know?
    OK Let's go with that?
    Sarin is an Organophosphate, or basically a Pesticide. It could be deployed with one of these:


    Or more easily from one of these if the driver had a simple Tyvek suit and mask on:


    But more than likely, it was launched by rocket, or mortar. Mortar's are more dangerous if the canister breaks when fired. But the deployment of Sarin is as easy as putting it in a CS gas canister, driving through a neighborhood, pulling the pin and throwing the canister as you haul butt out of the area.

    There are other chemicals that are more dangerous to the people deploying it, and cannot be as easily deployed; Phosgene for instance, which is what Saddam Hussein used against the Kurds in northern Iraq.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Sarin is an Organophosphate, or basically a Pesticide. It could be deployed with one of these:


    Or more easily from one of these if the driver had a simple Tyvek suit and mask on:


    But more than likely, it was launched by rocket, or mortar. Mortar's are more dangerous if the canister breaks when fired. But the deployment of Sarin is as easy as putting it in a CS gas canister, driving through a neighborhood, pulling the pin and throwing the canister as you haul butt out of the area.

    There are other chemicals that are more dangerous to the people deploying it, and cannot be as easily deployed; Phosgene for instance, which is what Saddam Hussein used against the Kurds in northern Iraq.
    Except, with that delivery system, there would be reb casualties. So far, we haven't seen any.
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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We don't have any idea that any were fired...by the rebs...loaded with chemical agents.
    Very, very true. And nor do we know that it was the Syrian government, or that it was not the rebels (Al Qaeda, FSA or whoever).

    My two biggest problem with all of this debate about firing upon Syria are as follows (the second is summarized by cartoon):

    1) We don't know exactly who did what, and we will be committing and Act of War on a nation that has one of the closest relationships with Russia than any other country in the world, and China than any other country in the region. We are moving headlong into the unknown that can be devastating to our country if not managed correctly.

    And, 2)


    I fought Al Qaeda in three different theaters of operation. I don't like the prospect of helping them at all.

    Did you see the interview today that Anderson Cooper had with the Leader of the FSA? If not, you need to find it online and listen closely to what he had to say about the potential of an attack by the US.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Except, with that delivery system, there would be reb casualties. So far, we haven't seen any.
    With the first example, yes. With the second, potentially not. With the other examples, probably not.

    And think about what you said just a minute. When I realized the same thing you said, is when I starting thinking differently; that we haven't seen rebel casualties. I asked myself, "Why would anyone deploy such a weapon and not attack the 'enemy'?" Why were there not any FSA, or Al Qaeda casualties? Only nonbelligerent civilians? That's where I started asking questions.

    I do have a theory though. And it's too convoluted to type in this post.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    We have no idea how many rockets were fired, or how much Sarin was deployed. Also there are environmental elements; wind distribution, concentration of the agent between buildings and disbursement patterns due to both.

    My only reason to show the picture, was to prove that multiple and simplistic delivery systems exist, and to believe what the Administration is saying (that it does not) is just incorrect.

    There are also higher capacity delivery systems available for use in the region by non-government elements.

    Not arguing with you, just pointing out that the possibility exists, and it is not a far fetched possibility.

    On another subject, I cannot believe that the US government is stating that they "so not want to go to War" in Syria, but are stating in the same breath that they do want to fire missiles at Syria. The last time I checked, firing upon another sovereign nation is an Act of War. They would have every right declaring war against the US, and having their allies do the same, if we do attack them.
    The delivery system isn't complex--the issue is the instability of sarin. I think the assumption is that it would have to have been done by binary shells created in a laboratory because of the storage and stability issues of the actual sarin, and that would indicate government involvement. From what I have read it only takes a single droplet to kill someone and can persist for up to 8 hours depending on weather. I am not convinced the deaths couldn't have been the result of rebels, but even if it were the government, I still do not see this as being our fight to fight. There is no upside for the US.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Except, with that delivery system, there would be reb casualties. So far, we haven't seen any.
    And what if some of those dead were actually rebels and not civilians? You know how the Taliban just melt away..
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    The delivery system isn't complex--the issue is the instability of sarin.
    Actually it isn't as unstable as the government would have you believe. Disinformation to deter use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I think the assumption is that it would have to have been done by binary shells created in a laboratory because of the storage and stability issues of the actual sarin, and that would indicate government involvement.
    For full militarization, yes. But, Sarin can be deployed in any canister that will rupture upon impact. Similar to the old fire extinguisher bombs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    From what I have read it only takes a single droplet to kill someone and can persist for up to 8 hours depending on weather.
    It's true that one droplet can kill a person, but it would take a while and be an agonizing death if not treated with Atropine and other drugs quickly. The eight hours is an average. The virulence of the agent is also dependent upon the Adjuvants used in the formulation. If a wetting adjuvant is used, it can evaporate quickly, where if a co-solvent or penetrant (which is usually used with Nerve Agents) is used, the virulence can potentially be days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I am not convinced the deaths couldn't have been the result of rebels, but even if it were the government, I still do not see this as being our fight to fight.
    I'm not convinced of anything other than it happened, and Sarin was used.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    There is no upside for the US.
    The only potential upside for the US would be to weaken Iran's influence in the area by plugging the pipeline from Iran to Hamas in their attacks of Israel, and to deny Russia it's largest military (Navy) base in the Mediterranean Sea.

    But neither of those mean anything if we are not prepared to do ALL that is required. Firing a few missiles at Syria will accomplish nothing but inflaming our enemies and straining the already precarious relationship with Russia and China.

    We have backed ourselves into a corner, by not acting earlier, and also by not doing the things necessary to garner a coalition. Fail/Fail.
    Last edited by Beaudreaux; 09-04-13 at 02:20 AM.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I wouldn't be at all surprised. I hate to see us going into Syria half-cocked, without knowing 100% for sure what has really happened there. Our government appears to be trusting those whom we have been fighting against, and imo, our going into Syria is a huge mistake.
    It comes down to the same problem I had with the evidence in Iraq. It is cherry picked data shown to the public as propaganda to hype up support for a war. This is a middle east civil war between two groups that have done some extremely violent and very evil things on both sides. There is no reliable good guy here, and any evidence presented to say such a thing is going to be shaky at best. That is why I feel we should stick purely to US security interests in the matter and since they are fighting each other we stand back unless we are willing to commit to a full takeover and occupation to end the fighting and make the country safe. If we are going to play the end of violence do gooder role then we should go after the only solution that leads to peace which is a occupied forced cool off for decades while a new power structure is created and the old hatreds die off or cool off. I do not think we have the capabilities, endurance, will, or worldwide support to do any of that, but there is no plan for dropping bombs short of glassing the place that would bring peace and end the humanitarian abuses there.

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    I'm not saying that's what happened. But the Syrian government was winning the war and attacking only civilians only galvanized the world against them. That seems like an awfully boneheaded move. I wondered why the UN wasn't acting, it may be because this isn't as clear cut as Obama is making it out to be.
    Not exactly the most reliable source lol. CRG is a notorious conspiracy theory factory. Moreover the story about Syrian Islamists with small quantities of sarin discovered by Turkish agents is an old story from a few months ago, not how it is portrayed in the article.

    A few gems:

    Raising Awareness on 9/11 Truth: Changing Opinions and Building Momentum | Global Research
    HAARP: Secret Weapon Used For Weather Modification, Electromagnetic Warfare | Global Research
    “Scientific Assassinations” Are Part of the CIA’s Modus Operandi | Global Research
    The JFK Assassination Marked the End of the American Republic | Global Research

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    Re: Rebels are to blame for gas attacks? (Syria)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    With the first example, yes. With the second, potentially not. With the other examples, probably not.

    And think about what you said just a minute. When I realized the same thing you said, is when I starting thinking differently; that we haven't seen rebel casualties. I asked myself, "Why would anyone deploy such a weapon and not attack the 'enemy'?" Why were there not any FSA, or Al Qaeda casualties? Only nonbelligerent civilians? That's where I started asking questions.

    I do have a theory though. And it's too convoluted to type in this post.
    You seem to know your stuff, so I'll ask - let's say we have perfect conditions to use sarin in. What would you say would be the minimal amount of sarin needed to kill 1400 people? Is that an amount that would be easily obtainable by well funded rebel forces? I ask because I admit my knowledge of what you're discussing is a little bit above my knowledge on the subject. If it is easily obtainable by rebel forces, who would be the most likely to be supplying them with it?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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