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Thread: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov claim

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    As world leaders it is your problem. Like I said if you allow a country like Syria to fire chemical weapons whats stopping other countries following their lead?
    That's a fair point. But we really need absolutely ironclad evidence that we aren't being manipulated by the extremists among the rebels. Only they benefit from a Western attack against Assad. It's really strange that he would use chemical weapons -- something he doesn't need to prevail and something he knows would provoke a US response -- while it's not strange that the jihadist elements in the rebellion would. Now never underestimate the stupidity of dictators like Assad; still, I don't trust the rebels (or at least some of them). They have their own agenda and it isn't secular democracy.

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    That's a fair point. But we really need absolutely ironclad evidence that we aren't being manipulated by the extremists among the rebels. Only they benefit from a Western attack against Assad. It's really strange that he would use chemical weapons -- something he doesn't need to prevail and something he knows would provoke a US response -- while it's not strange that the jihadist elements in the rebellion would. Now never underestimate the stupidity of dictators like Assad; still, I don't trust the rebels (or at least some of them). They have their own agenda and it isn't secular democracy.
    As much as I'd personally like to send a few missiles Assad's way, you're absolutely right - we need to prove who used the gas and how they did it.

    And when it comes to the rebels, I saw a political cartoon that applies:

    sk082913dAPR20130829074515.jpg

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Too be honest Pete it wont matter what evidence the US or the UN put out there because people are only going to claim that the information is false. They will say that the UN is useless and big bad America forged the evidence etc.
    Well, the rightwingers do this, but the jingoists among them won't in this case. They'll suddenly laud the UN and claim Obama is weak for not bombing Damascus or something.

    I respect the UN and its work. Still, a civil war is underway in Syria; the information is unreliable (at least what little I know about it). If our intelligence agencies come up with a determination beyond a reasonable doubt that Assad, not the jihadists, used chemical weapons, then we should respond in some way. But beyond that, there is simply too much uncertainty and we have no reason to trust the rebels, at least not as a whole. They are not fighting for social democracy.

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    If Romney were POTUS, his foreign policy team (remember them), would already have us in war. And Repubs would be singing a different tune, especially on blogs like this one.

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    As much as I'd personally like to send a few missiles Assad's way, you're absolutely right - we need to prove who used the gas and how they did it.

    And when it comes to the rebels, I saw a political cartoon that applies:

    sk082913dAPR20130829074515.jpg
    I hear you. Assad is a monster. Everybody can agree on that I hope. The problem is, supporting religious zealots over a secular autocrat got us the chaos and death of Afghanistan and Iraq. It's not a sound way to proceed.

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I'm not happy living in a world where we allow dictatorships to fire of WMD's I think we will set a precedent that other radical countries will be more than happy to test if we allow Syria to go unpunished. I also think if we do nothing then the Iraq war would have been a complete waste since we are still allowing dictators in the region to use chemical weapons. Maybe my service tour is Iraq makes me slightly biased when it comes to this but unfortunately this is just how I feel.
    Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack

    "As the machinery for a U.S.-led military intervention in Syria gathers pace following last week’s chemical weapons attack, the U.S. and its allies may be targeting the wrong culprit.

    Interviews with people in Damascus and Ghouta, a suburb of the Syrian capital, where the humanitarian agency Doctors Without Borders said at least 355 people had died last week from what it believed to be a neurotoxic agent, appear to indicate as much.

    The U.S., Britain, and France as well as the Arab League have accused the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for carrying out the chemical weapons attack, which mainly targeted civilians. U.S. warships are stationed in the Mediterranean Sea to launch military strikes against Syria in punishment for carrying out a massive chemical weapons attack. The U.S. and others are not interested in examining any contrary evidence, with U.S Secretary of State John Kerry saying Monday that Assad’s guilt was “a judgment … already clear to the world.”

    However, from numerous interviews with doctors, Ghouta residents, rebel fighters and their families, a different picture emerges. Many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the dealing gas attack.

    “My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry,” said Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta.

    Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels were killed inside of a tunnel used to store weapons provided by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, who was leading a fighting battalion. The father described the weapons as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

    Ghouta townspeople said the rebels were using mosques and private houses to sleep while storing their weapons in tunnels.

    Abdel-Moneim said his son and the others died during the chemical weapons attack. That same day, the militant group Jabhat al-Nusra, which is linked to al-Qaida, announced that it would similarly attack civilians in the Assad regime’s heartland of Latakia on Syria’s western coast, in purported retaliation.

    “They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them,” complained a female fighter named ‘K.’ “We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons.”

    “When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them,” she warned. She, like other Syrians, do not want to use their full names for fear of retribution.

    A well-known rebel leader in Ghouta named ‘J’ agreed. “Jabhat al-Nusra militants do not cooperate with other rebels, except with fighting on the ground. They do not share secret information. They merely used some ordinary rebels to carry and operate this material,” he said.

    “We were very curious about these arms. And unfortunately, some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions,”

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Because I disregarded it. Russia and China will of course veto it as they have horses in the race doesn't make it right though and we have gone over their heads before.
    In other words, the UN is a useful tool when we get our way and irrelevant otherwise. You have no use for the rule of law. You smell blood in Syria, and you want your way!

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Because I disregarded it. Russia and China will of course veto it as they have horses in the race doesn't make it right though and we have gone over their heads before.

    Oh ok, we'll just disregard you then.

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Well, the rightwingers do this, but the jingoists among them won't in this case. They'll suddenly laud the UN and claim Obama is weak for not bombing Damascus or something.

    I respect the UN and its work. Still, a civil war is underway in Syria; the information is unreliable (at least what little I know about it). If our intelligence agencies come up with a determination beyond a reasonable doubt that Assad, not the jihadists, used chemical weapons, then we should respond in some way. But beyond that, there is simply too much uncertainty and we have no reason to trust the rebels, at least not as a whole. They are not fighting for social democracy.
    Countries in civil wars don't require US military action. We have a constitutional precedence, does that not matter to anyone anymore?

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    Re: 1,429 people were killed by a chemical attack carried out by Syrian Gov- US gov c

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack

    "As the machinery for a U.S.-led military intervention in Syria gathers pace following last week’s chemical weapons attack, the U.S. and its allies may be targeting the wrong culprit.

    Interviews with people in Damascus and Ghouta, a suburb of the Syrian capital, where the humanitarian agency Doctors Without Borders said at least 355 people had died last week from what it believed to be a neurotoxic agent, appear to indicate as much.

    The U.S., Britain, and France as well as the Arab League have accused the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for carrying out the chemical weapons attack, which mainly targeted civilians. U.S. warships are stationed in the Mediterranean Sea to launch military strikes against Syria in punishment for carrying out a massive chemical weapons attack. The U.S. and others are not interested in examining any contrary evidence, with U.S Secretary of State John Kerry saying Monday that Assad’s guilt was “a judgment … already clear to the world.”

    However, from numerous interviews with doctors, Ghouta residents, rebel fighters and their families, a different picture emerges. Many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the dealing gas attack.

    “My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry,” said Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta.

    Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels were killed inside of a tunnel used to store weapons provided by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, who was leading a fighting battalion. The father described the weapons as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

    Ghouta townspeople said the rebels were using mosques and private houses to sleep while storing their weapons in tunnels.

    Abdel-Moneim said his son and the others died during the chemical weapons attack. That same day, the militant group Jabhat al-Nusra, which is linked to al-Qaida, announced that it would similarly attack civilians in the Assad regime’s heartland of Latakia on Syria’s western coast, in purported retaliation.

    “They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them,” complained a female fighter named ‘K.’ “We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons.”

    “When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them,” she warned. She, like other Syrians, do not want to use their full names for fear of retribution.

    A well-known rebel leader in Ghouta named ‘J’ agreed. “Jabhat al-Nusra militants do not cooperate with other rebels, except with fighting on the ground. They do not share secret information. They merely used some ordinary rebels to carry and operate this material,” he said.

    “We were very curious about these arms. And unfortunately, some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions,”

    Dave, these people want to turn Syria into a sea of glass, in support of the Islamist extremists. I don't understand what's going on either.

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