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McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

justabubba said:
why work for someone else; why not instead create your own job by starting a small business?
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Personally, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm done waiting for someone else to pay me what I'm worth, so I'll do it myself. But, not everyone can start a business; most people simply work best as employees but, there's also a problem with a sudden lack of teamwork. We need an employer/employee dynamic, it's essential to modern society, but we need a better one. When wage inequality gets this bad, it strangles the working class and creates all sorts of problems. There is a direct correlation between wage inequality and unemployment. The last time CEO/Executive pay was this high a ratio to the average worker, it was just before the Great Depression.

j-mac said:
So who says you have to stay in that industry? Or that job in particular? Let's take the example of the 23 year old that comes out of college with a degree, and can't find a job in his field...So, he moves in with mom and dad, gets the job at McD's and ponders how life sucks. OR, he moves to where he can get a job he needs, or he can go into a different direction. But, your attitude here sounds more defeatist than can do....

Well, I don't know what your particular degree is in, but maybe it is the area you live, or the degree you have is not in demand there....Would you move?
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Most people can't move, but even if they could, how should that work in the long run? Once all the jobs are taken in one area, what next? Move again? It'd be an endless cycle of traveling the country, working for peanuts. Once you factor in travel costs, that makes less sense than staying where they are. Rock and a hard place. My attitude isn't quite defeatist, it's empathetic; I feel for my fellow Americans and I'm tired of hard workers getting the short end of the stick.

My degree was in Math/Physics. I got a couple tutoring gigs here and there by mentioning my degree, but nothing that would even pay my student loan payments. Like every student, my counselor told me my degree would open every door and make me filthy rich; it didn't. (I never really thought it would, but I expected a lot more than what I got.) The only reason I went to college, working two jobs every day just to pay for it, was so I would get a better job when it was done. Since getting my degree, my income has dropped by a third. As I mentioned above, I'm just going to start my own business, but it shouldn't be this way for me and my peers; we did the work, paid our dues, and there was no job at the end of the tunnel.
 
polgara said:
Greetings, P. Kersey. :2wave:

We have been debating the pros and cons of raising the minimum wage by a little under $2.00 for a long time. The McDonald's employees in NYC want to double their minimum wage to $15.00 an hour! How many of us can ask our employer to double our hourly wage without looking like we're crazy? I realize it costs a lot to live in NYC, but c'mon! It's unreasonable. I never thought I'd live to see the day when a person couldn't afford to eat at a McDonalds! It will be interesting to see what happens next! :thumbs:
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Hi there polgara. Hope you're doing well this evening.

Correct...and here's the way I see it;

Socialism and Marxism must have a poor, weak "victim" and a rich evil "exploiter" in order to grow.
The cultural divide between the conservatives and left means that the left must agitate and use class warfare to build its power base.
Their tactic today is to "remake" society by destroying it from the inside.
 
Deuce said:
And where will these mythical high-paying jobs, that apparently everyone can have if they just work harder, come from?
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I made mine and then hired other people to.
 
Heebie Jeebie said:
Wow all those people who seem to have figured out that paying $15/hour at McDonalds will still let the owner make a nice profit. They should buy some franchises and follow their own advice, they'll make a killing.
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Let me get this straight... you are saying that people who are getting paid so badly that they can't hardly make ends meet, should BUY a franchise? Looks like your philosophy is flawless. lol
 
douglas said:
Most people can't move, but even if they could, how should that work in the long run? Once all the jobs are taken in one area, what next? Move again? It'd be an endless cycle of traveling the country, working for peanuts. Once you factor in travel costs, that makes less sense than staying where they are. Rock and a hard place. My attitude isn't quite defeatist, it's empathetic; I feel for my fellow Americans and I'm tired of hard workers getting the short end of the stick.
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Yes, life is unfair at times..But 'can't'? Don't give me that bull....Let me tell you just a little of my story....I grew up relatively comfortably, private school, Dad owned his own business, and provided well. I as a dumb ass thought I knew better and like a lot of kids, flew out on my own with nothing. Before I was 21 I was married, with child, and a commission job at a mall shoe store....Pretty bleak. But I didn't blame anyone, and I blamed everyone. When that and my marriage didn't work out (big surprise) I joined the military. And after 6 years, and with the support of my 2nd wife I got out to find that military training wasn't something that was usable to anyone on the outside, regardless of what the commercials said...I didn't blame anyone, and also blamed everyone. I kept this kind of liberal mindset until I lost my house in the early 2000s. Then I looked in the mirror one day and said 'this sucks, and no one is to blame but me'! So I worked hard, moved to a more affordable area, and now own my own home again, own my pick up truck outright, and live pretty damned good.

The point is, if I would have taken the attitude that I see so much from liberal progressives, or the left today, I would still be stuck in that rental shack in Maryland paying too much, and barely making it....No one got me where I am today but me, good or bad.

My degree was in Math/Physics. I got a couple tutoring gigs here and there by mentioning my degree, but nothing that would even pay my student loan payments. Like every student, my counselor told me my degree would open every door and make me filthy rich; it didn't. (I never really thought it would, but I expected a lot more than what I got.) The only reason I went to college, working two jobs every day just to pay for it, was so I would get a better job when it was done. Since getting my degree, my income has dropped by a third. As I mentioned above, I'm just going to start my own business, but it shouldn't be this way for me and my peers; we did the work, paid our dues, and there was no job at the end of the tunnel.
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See, that is what I mean. You sound like you thought college was some kind of dues paying experience. It isn't, it is an education. Nothing more, nothing less, and it depends on what YOU do with it. Just because you went to school and graduated no one owes you a damned thing, you have to earn it, you are just lucky enough to have the education to apply it, if you choose. The problem with kids coming out of college is this right here, they think they are entitled to top job, top pay, 1st class everything without actually being in the working world to earn it...Hell, I am 51 years old, and after all I told you above, I am just now owning a house, saving for retirement, and slowly getting to where I think I might not have to work into the grave. And I busted my ass for 20 plus years to get here....

No one is going to give you anything in this world, pull up your big boy pants, find out where the money is and go get it....Good luck.
 
What the advocates of a $15 minimum wage fail to realize is the impact it will have on job creation/retention throughout the entire economy. If $15 per hour is the minimum I can legally pay an unskilled, untrained, entry level job, what do I pay the guy who has skills, experience and is currently making (say) $13 per hour? Clearly, to be fair to him, he would have to be paid over $20. But what if I cant pay my employees $20 per hour and stay in business? Well, the liberals don't have an answer for that because they simply don't care and don't care to understand the negative impact of their irrational demands. Having run a small business for over 20 years, I can tell you that would simply have fewer employees today were this new, arbitrary wage scale imposed today. And I could also say with confidence that if this wage scale had been in place when I first opened my business, it is unlikely to have ever opened in the first place.

If this new wage policy were enacted tomorrow, do you think that retailers and fast food restaurants would become more common or less common. Obviously, the answer is less common. Malls already struggle in this country, and a doubling of the minimum wage would destroy them completely. Major retailing chains would reduce their outlets and many would simply go out of business. Other chains, like McDonalds I suspect, would simply consolidate and close underperforming stores. All of that points to job destruction, not job creation.

While true that those lucky enough to have a job would be earning significantly more, that increase in income would simply be swallowed up by an increase in the cost of EVERYTHING. Its not just Big Macs that will cost more, but since every industry would be impacted by this arbitrary wage hike, prices would increase for every industry as well. Your new found wealth will simply vanish in the mists of inflation.

As bad as that is, the worst part would be the creation of a large, and permanent class of the unemployable. Where some might take a chance on au unskilled person at $7.00 per hour, very few will take that chance for $15. That impact will be most profound for the young. Youth unemployment is already high and demanding that industry pay even more for unskilled, untrained entry level positions will only reduce the demand for those positions even further. If McDonalds has to pay its employees $15 per hour, are they going to hire kids who come and go like they are in a revolving door? Or are they going to hire someone with at least some sort of experience/ job history?

The truth is, the proposed doubling of the minimum wage is a feel-good measure and nothing more: it makes liberals feel good, but makes zero economic or societal sense. It is, like everything else they do, destructive to those they purport to help.
 
douglas said:
Personally, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm done waiting for someone else to pay me what I'm worth, so I'll do it myself. But, not everyone can start a business; most people simply work best as employees but, there's also a problem with a sudden lack of teamwork. We need an employer/employee dynamic, it's essential to modern society, but we need a better one. When wage inequality gets this bad, it strangles the working class and creates all sorts of problems. There is a direct correlation between wage inequality and unemployment. The last time CEO/Executive pay was this high a ratio to the average worker, it was just before the Great Depression.



Most people can't move, but even if they could, how should that work in the long run? Once all the jobs are taken in one area, what next? Move again? It'd be an endless cycle of traveling the country, working for peanuts. Once you factor in travel costs, that makes less sense than staying where they are. Rock and a hard place. My attitude isn't quite defeatist, it's empathetic; I feel for my fellow Americans and I'm tired of hard workers getting the short end of the stick.

My degree was in Math/Physics. I got a couple tutoring gigs here and there by mentioning my degree, but nothing that would even pay my student loan payments. Like every student, my counselor told me my degree would open every door and make me filthy rich; it didn't. (I never really thought it would, but I expected a lot more than what I got.) The only reason I went to college, working two jobs every day just to pay for it, was so I would get a better job when it was done. Since getting my degree, my income has dropped by a third. As I mentioned above, I'm just going to start my own business, but it shouldn't be this way for me and my peers; we did the work, paid our dues, and there was no job at the end of the tunnel.
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it surprises me with a math/science degree that you cannot locate a teaching position within your commute. in my berg, math/science teachers command a literal premium because the demand for those with such degrees is so intense

and as to starting a small business, it is not for everyone. nor everyone with a degree. you are correct. but a degree indicates you have the ability to learn, and the knowledge needed to successfully operate a small business is quite fundamental. unfortunately, we teach our kids how to become someone else's employee rather than what they need to know to successfully launch an enterprise of their own

in my observation, there are three ways to wealth in America: luck into it by virtue of the womb or buying the right lottery ticket; or receive a professional degree; or build a business enterprise

let me confess that i have a difficult time reading your laments. you appear to have the gifts of an education, health and youth and yet complain that your future is dim. it can be as bright as YOU allow it to be. do not be the person that holds you back
 
P. Kersey said:
Nice try.
Untrue and dishonest, though.
No surprise there.
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Yeah right! I asked you point blank about where the 12 trillion came before Obama took office and you have yet to reply to that. So no it is not dishonest at all!
 
greengirl77 said:
Yeah right! I asked you point blank about where the 12 trillion came before Obama took office and you have yet to reply to that. So no it is not dishonest at all!
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Post your sources and state a clear hypothesis. Chanting slogans doesn't count as a "source".
 
Fenton said:
Oh please continue to strike and demand double the wages when you're barely worth what you earn now.

The fats foid workers demanding double pay is indicative of a economy thats been run by a incompetent Liberal.

Fast food jobs and part time work is all thats available.
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Erod said:
$15 an hour to flip burgers?

LOL, prepare for the $10 Happy Meal.

Economists, these folks ain't.
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Like most things, the math is simple. Most analyists say that a third of costs in fast food is labor. Double that means 2/3 will be devoted to labor, leaving 1/3 to cover plant and equipment, food costs, administration, and profit.

That's gonna work.
 
justabubba said:
it surprises me with a math/science degree that you cannot locate a teaching position within your commute. in my berg, math/science teachers command a literal premium because the demand for those with such degrees is so intense
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I guess it depends on where you live. (Berg? I'm not familiar with this term.) When I tell employers that I have that degree, they seem quite indifferent; they want workers, not thinkers.

and as to starting a small business, it is not for everyone. nor everyone with a degree. you are correct. but a degree indicates you have the ability to learn, and the knowledge needed to successfully operate a small business is quite fundamental. unfortunately, we teach our kids how to become someone else's employee rather than what they need to know to successfully launch an enterprise of their own
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True. I think American education is fraudulent in many ways. Partly, there is a lot of money in getting people to enroll in colleges, leading to a lot of the lying that leads people into thinking that a degree will magically get them a job. I admit that I got my degree for the wrong reasons, but I was young and had lots of convincing liars around me. But, I still say that "small business" is not the solution to all our problems; we can't all own businesses and have no employees.
in my observation, there are three ways to wealth in America: luck into it by virtue of the womb or buying the right lottery ticket; or receive a professional degree; or build a business enterprise
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Those are all essentially luck now; Having a degree isn't helping the majority of people that graduated in the last couple of years. There prospectives are based on whether they know the right guy and are in the right place at the right time, not whether they know the right stuff or have the right degree. 98% of businesses fail, so that's also a pretty big risk. In modern America, wealth is almost entirely due to luck. Even in my own business idea, I completely acknowledge the fact that I could lose everything even though I worked for it.
let me confess that i have a difficult time reading your laments. you appear to have the gifts of an education, health and youth and yet complain that your future is dim. it can be as bright as YOU allow it to be. do not be the person that holds you back
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I agree, I wasn't lamenting for myself. I'm going to be fine, but what about the other millions of Americans who won't? I'm worried about my country.
 
jimbo said:
Like most things, the math is simple. Most analyists say that a third of costs in fast food is labor. Double that means 2/3 will be devoted to labor, leaving 1/3 to cover plant and equipment, food costs, administration, and profit.

That's gonna work.
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Greetings, jimbo. :2wave:

Since food costs are in the measly 1/3 that's left, it makes you want to run out and buy a McHamburger, doesn't it? :thumbdown: There were jokes about McD's having to buy another cow when they reached the million burgers sold...wonder what they will do if this passes? :shock:
 
Out till later this afternoon. :2wave:

Be well.
 
I sense that the whole $15 per hour thing is more of a Right Wing plot than a Left Wing goal.
Here is why I say this...

Even hardcore supporters of a minimum wage increase think this is silly and unrealistic.
The result of this $15 dollar an hour fast food push has everyone from both sides laughing.
Skilled labor such as construction and mechanics make $15 per hour.
Do we pay the floor mopper and burger flipper the same pay as the high-rise metal roofer who risks his life each and every day to implement a skill that took 5 years to learn?
This $15 fast food thing only serves to reinforce the Right Wing talking points and make them appear legit.


Minimum wage is far too low and utterly ridiculous. It most definitely needs to be raised.
But it has to be done with slow incremental increases.
And it has to be done for all Americans, not just fast food.
I'd like to see it eventually reach 15$ an hour. But not suddenly and not only for unskilled labor. Skilled labor also needs to rise.

There is also an area disconnect.
$15 is skilled labor in the South and is above poverty level, even if it is still not enough to afford health care.
But in the East, North, or West, it might not be much at all.
 
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mike2810 said:
So are you supporting entry level low/no skill jobs should be a living wage?

If the no skill/first ever job pay gets increased, should the first line supervisor job also be inceased? If not, are you not devaluing the worth of the more experienced worker?
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I think anyone who works 80 hours a week should be able to feed themselves, yes. Guess I'm just a communist.

ReformCollege said:
As the available pool of unemployed labor shrinks and AD rises, wages go up. That's econ 101.
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This, I think, is the underlying flaw in libertarianism. They take Econ 101 and think they understand the world. That's like taking Physics 101 and thinking you're an engineer.
 
Deuce said:
I think anyone who works 80 hours a week should be able to feed themselves, yes. Guess I'm just a communist.



This, I think, is the underlying flaw in libertarianism. They take Econ 101 and think they understand the world. That's like taking Physics 101 and thinking you're an engineer.
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Someone who works 0 hours a week can feed themselves. Its called food stamps, soup kitchens and the dollar menu.

And I think that is the underlying flaw in your logic, that econ 101 can simply just be ignored when attempting to understand the world. You can't take physics 101 and automatically be an engineer, but you also can't be an engineer without understanding physics 101.
 
I wonder why they picked $15/hour out of a hat to fight for? Why not $30/hour?
 
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