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Thread: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

  1. #321
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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No, not even close.




    If that's really your agenda -- to promote this wage hike as a veiled, de facto sin tax, negatively impact the company and further constrain the job options for people who would likely otherwise be unemployed, then just admit that's your agenda from the get-go. It wouldn't have quite as nice of a ring to it, but at least it'd show a little more awareness of the real world consequences of these policy ideas.

    It's not really that they "can't afford" it anymore. Arguably, they can't afford it right now. What they should be eating is bulk rice and grains that they prepare themselves. But (insert excuse here).
    Why isn't it close? Do you believe it should work by government subsidies vs higher paying wages by the company?


    Maybe it is you that needs to show a little more awareness of policy ideas. If they are paid below the poverty line, someone has to pick up the costs to allow them to survive and I will repeat it is not the responsibility of the taxpayer. It is the responsibility of the company. If the consequence is less low wage workers so be it.

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Why isn't it close? Do you believe it should work by government subsidies vs higher paying wages by the company?
    That is a false dichotomy, and further I don't think it's worth either of our time for me to explain to you why government providing for any unmet individual needs is not conducive to capitalism.

    Maybe it is you that needs to show a little more awareness of policy ideas. If they are paid below the poverty line, someone has to pick up the costs to allow them to survive and I will repeat it is not the responsibility of the taxpayer. It is the responsibility of the company. If the consequence is less low wage workers so be it.
    You have it perfectly backwards, and there is no disputing it. It indeed is the responsibility of the elected government now, thanks to our burgeoning welfare system, to administer these benefits. The laws have been passed and the government departments have been created.

    On the other hand, employers have zero responsibility to pay a wage that meets the particular individual needs or budgetary concerns of the worker. The only wage responsibility ANY employer has (whether you're the employer of someone remodeling your bathroom or a corporation is the employer of you to perform a set of tasks) is to uphold the terms of the employment contract that is developed and signed by both parties.

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    I will try to keep this short. Your underling premise is flawed. Life will never be fair you can't legislate it social justice will never trump the laws of economics.

    Here is your solution. Pro growth economic,tax and regulatory policies that create full employment. Competion for employees dries wages up for all workers.
    All you've done is taken an adage, "life isn't fair," and accepted that as fact. Why isn't it fair? For whom? Does it have to be?

    Governments pass laws addressing fairness all the time. It's kind of what they do.

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    All you've done is taken an adage, "life isn't fair," and accepted that as fact. Why isn't it fair? For whom? Does it have to be?

    Governments pass laws addressing fairness all the time. It's kind of what they do.
    It's an adage for a reason. I'm not a utopian. If someone accumulates wealth and the government takes a good chunk of it and gives it to someone else in the name of fairness, who are they being fair to?

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    All you've done is taken an adage, "life isn't fair," and accepted that as fact. Why isn't it fair? For whom? Does it have to be?

    Governments pass laws addressing fairness all the time. It's kind of what they do.
    Addressing fairness? Really? The US Tax Code? US Tariffs and Customs Duties? Really? I'll grant you that at its best government can act to promote fairness. But at least as often it acts to promote the interests of the most powerful lobby at the moment.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  6. #326
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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    That is a false dichotomy, and further I don't think it's worth either of our time for me to explain to you why government providing for any unmet individual needs is not conducive to capitalism.



    You have it perfectly backwards, and there is no disputing it. It indeed is the responsibility of the elected government now, thanks to our burgeoning welfare system, to administer these benefits. The laws have been passed and the government departments have been created.

    On the other hand, employers have zero responsibility to pay a wage that meets the particular individual needs or budgetary concerns of the worker. The only wage responsibility ANY employer has (whether you're the employer of someone remodeling your bathroom or a corporation is the employer of you to perform a set of tasks) is to uphold the terms of the employment contract that is developed and signed by both parties.
    Well it's not conductive to capitalism because it isn't setting a fair market price.

    It is only their responsibility when a person is reaching below poverty wages. People with full time employment should not be making lower than poverty wages. Even working two part time jobs that amount to full time plus hours should not equal below poverty wages from a multibillion dollar industry. If it isn't the responsiblity of the employers to pay a wage decent for a country than why don't we all operate like China? We should expect better standards otherwise we get what we deserve.

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Well it's not conductive to capitalism because it isn't setting a fair market price.
    Fair market prices refer to the price at which willing buyers and willing sellers agree. You're advocating a third party (government) meddle in this discussion, which just distorts any determination of what is considered "fair." You don't decide what is "fair" because you have political opinions (nor do I, for that matter). Who decides fairness of a given transaction are the buyer and seller.

    It is only their responsibility when a person is reaching below poverty wages. People with full time employment should not be making lower than poverty wages.
    You know what, I agree, but I would frame this slightly differently: in my opinion, people should typically not be willing to work more than 2,000 hours per year for that amount of money (less than $20,000), as I find that to be borderline irrational --- but if they really want to make that trade, how is it fair, in a country that has any value for liberty, to interfere in their affairs and prevent them from doing so?

    If it isn't the responsiblity of the employers to pay a wage decent for a country than why don't we all operate like China?
    Huh? Employment is a contract between two adult parties -- a buyer of labor and a seller of labor. Employment is not a parent-child relationship in which one party is responsible for providing for the other. Until you can acknowledge this, your opinions on this issue will continue to appear rather bizarre.

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Addressing fairness? Really? The US Tax Code? US Tariffs and Customs Duties? Really? I'll grant you that at its best government can act to promote fairness. But at least as often it acts to promote the interests of the most powerful lobby at the moment.
    Sorry. You've served up some red meat and some softballs buti can't do them justice as I drive frol fla to Carolina on my phone.

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Sorry. You've served up some red meat and some softballs buti can't do them justice as I drive frol fla to Carolina on my phone.
    I assume you're driving in your car and posting on your phone. You should not post and drive. Travel safely.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: McJobs and the Minimum Wage[W:123,226]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Addressing fairness? Really? The US Tax Code? US Tariffs and Customs Duties? Really? I'll grant you that at its best government can act to promote fairness. But at least as often it acts to promote the interests of the most powerful lobby at the moment.
    Exactly. Fairness is not an absolute. What seems fair to you or a company may not seem fair to me or the employee. It's up to us all to debate and decide how to define it for the greatest good.

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