Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

Hatuey · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
You can make it through breakfast without that.

Says you, the non-psychologist, non-psychiatrist, stranger who has no clue as to why this guy was diagnosed with PTSD to begin with or why he's been given a service dog. Spare us all your lack of knowledge of the subject.

We make exceptions because people need those animals to do physical things.

Depression in many of its forms can cripple a person to the point where they can't function physically.

Every pet owner feels better with their dog, that is not a reason to start letting them roam around restaurants.

This can't be the 1st time somebody in this thread has pointed out to you that service dogs aren't pets.

A blind man cannot see well enough to walk around the restaurant without his dog.

Tell me, do you spend a lot of time on these thoughts?

A cripple cannot use their body well enough to get along without their aids. This guy can eat breakfast without a freakout.

Cripples can operate forks, so can blind people. The blind can also walk with the use of canes. So by the standards set in your elegantly worded post, service dogs simply aren't necessary for anybody considering they can do most things without service dogs. Correct?

He might feel a little bit lonely, but suck it up.

I'll keep that in mind when I see you make little posts like this in support of gay marriage and transgendered rights:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/167853-transgender-rights-26.html#post1062116726

it means you have no idea of the perceptions and feelings of a TG person because it is out of your range of experience.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-a...violation-human-rights-30.html#post1062238468

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-a...en-boys-identify-girls-40.html#post1062211308

I'll basically start looking out for your posts supporting gay marriage, tell you that you should learn to deal with the fact most people aren't in favor, so you should learn to lead a lonely life and suck it up.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

Hatuey said:
Says you, the non-psychologist, non-psychiatrist, stranger who has no clue as to why this guy was diagnosed with PTSD to begin with or why he's been given a service dog. Spare us all your lack of knowledge of the subject.

Though standards are pretty low for insanity right now, I am pretty sure if you freak out over breakfast you are probably going to have to be locked up in a institution. I would be willing to be if you asked the guy if he could get through breakfast without his doggy his manhood would probably get him to answer yes.

Hatuey said:
Depression in many of its forms can cripple a person to the point where they can't function physically.

We are not talking about keeping him from having a dog entirely. I am pretty sure he will be able to function without the pooch in eating establishments. If he is at that point where he is physically crippled from depression then it is time to put him in a facility for his own good. What if the dog gets run over, or dies of cancer, or just runs away? Then this guy is screwed and might feel bad. What happens if that happens to a blind man's service dog? Then the blind man cannot get around anymore safely. I have no problem with him having a therapy dog, but it is not a service animal.

Hatuey said:
This can't be the 1st time somebody in this thread has pointed out to you that service dogs aren't pets.

You are the ones who are lowing the bar so far that they are. I am the one trying to keep the bar up there so all pets do not become service animals because people feel depressed without them.

Hatuey said:
Tell me, do you spend a lot of time on these thoughts?

Tell me, do you have an actual rebuttal?

Hatuey said:
Cripples can operate forks, so can blind people. The blind can also walk with the use of canes. So by the standards set in your elegantly worded post, service dogs simply aren't necessary for anybody considering they can do most things without service dogs. Correct?

Wrong, a blind person cannot see as a dog does so the dog's sight is something a blind person needs. A cripple cannot grow a useful limb while in some place so they would need a service animal to help them. This guy is just sad. Where I hope he feels better, and am happy to help him get a dog if it makes him feel better, he can deal with the same rules as any pet owner.

Hatuey said:
I'll keep that in mind when I see you make little posts like this in support of gay marriage and transgendered rights:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/167853-transgender-rights-26.html#post1062116726

Those are two separate issues and I do not bargain for your support on other issues. If you are looking for someone to back you even when they think you are wrong just because you back them, I suggest you look somewhere else.

Hatuey said:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-a...violation-human-rights-30.html#post1062238468

http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-a...en-boys-identify-girls-40.html#post1062211308

I'll basically start looking out for your posts supporting gay marriage, tell you that you should learn to deal with the fact most people aren't in favor, so you should learn to lead a lonely life and suck it up.

hey, if you are threatening to post stalk me in other areas because I don't like this, that is your malfunction, and you are really barking up the wrong tree. I do not get intimidated easy, and I don't require your approval. However, I do note the use of some very cheapo tactics.

Hatuey · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
Though standards are pretty low for insanity

Considering insanity is not a recognized mental illness - the only standards you're using are subjective ones. You see why I've been calling you ignorant from the beginning?

We are not talking about keeping him from having a dog entirely. I am pretty sure he will be able to function without the pooch in eating establishments. If he is at that point where he is physically crippled from depression then it is time to put him in a facility for his own good. What if the dog gets run over, or dies of cancer, or just runs away? Then this guy is screwed and might feel bad. What happens if that happens to a blind man's service dog? Then the blind man cannot get around anymore safely.

Well, thanks for your opinion, I'm sure it comes from the same place that states 'insanity' is a mental illness.

I have no problem with him having a therapy dog, but it is not a service animal.

Too bad so many health care professionals disagree with you. :shrug:

You are the ones who are lowing the bar so far that they are. I am the one trying to keep the bar up there so all pets do not become service animals because people feel depressed without them.

Still can't grasp what PTSD is huh?

Tell me, do you have an actual rebuttal?

Considering all your posts have been thoroughly debunked and you've yet to provide a SINGLE source for your posts other than your nonsensical opinion, there isn't much to rebut.

Wrong, a blind person cannot see as a dog does so the dog's sight is something a blind person needs.

Considering many blind people can and do function without service dogs, they are not necessary. Again, YOUR standards, not mine.

A cripple cannot grow a useful limb while in some place so they would need a service animal to help them.

Considering many cripples can and do function without service dogs, again - they should no longer be considered service dogs. 2nd time your standard has backfired on you.

This guy is just sad. Where I hope he feels better, and am happy to help him get a dog if it makes him feel better, he can deal with the same rules as any pet owner.

Those are two separate issues and I do not bargain for your support on other issues. If you are looking for someone to back you even when they think you are wrong just because you back them, I suggest you look somewhere else.

hey, if you are threatening to post stalk me in other areas because I don't like this, that is your malfunction, and you are really barking up the wrong tree. I do not get intimidated easy, and I don't require your approval. GHowever, I do not the use of some very cheapo tactics.

I'm sorry - what is that? Are you being hypocritical? Look, gays are just being self-centred scam artists who want to get tax benefits. Their feelings and mental health are irrelevant. They're just whining because they can't have it their way. :shrug:

Baralis · Aug 30, 2013

I do not feel that business owners should ever be forced to serve anyone they do not wish to conduct business with regardless of the reason no matter how absurd.

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

TiredOfLife said:
I mean they are fine with that sign in a restaurant window, and they are.

Libertarians do not support racism but support an owner having control of his own property. That said it is the law that people with service animals are to be allowed to bring them in a restaurant since it is necessary to compensate for their disability. Unfortunately, there is great fear of people with mental illness and it is possible that the owner of that establishment was acting on the fear. Also he may loathe people who are mentally ill either due thinking them are weak or just pretending for what ever preconceived reason the man may come up with.

I will say this much that the mentally ill still suffer stigma in society still though not as badly as it was in the past. However it is not a topic that those who suffer mental illness will want to be open with generally. While the general population is aware to an extent that mental illness is something one cannot will themselves to mental health, there seem to be underlying assumptions on what mental illness really is since every one has off days but it is not a normal state that a person who never experienced mental illness would understand.

Also it is not clear that the mentally ill are considered a protected class under the Equal Right Act. If this veteran did not have a service animal the owner may have been able to deny him service because of that.

Hatuey · Aug 30, 2013

Shadow Serious said:
Libertarians do not support racism but support an owner having control of his own property. That said it is the law that people with service animals are to be allowed to bring them in a restaurant since it is necessary to compensate for their disability. Unfortunately, there is great fear of people with mental illness and it is possible that the owner of that establishment was acting on the fear. Also he may loathe people who are mentally ill either due thinking them are weak or just pretending for what ever preconceived reason the man may come up with.

I will say this much that the mentally ill still suffer stigma in society still though not as badly as it was in the past. However it is not a topic that those who suffer mental illness will want to be open with generally. While the general population is aware to an extent that mental illness is something one cannot will themselves to mental health, there seem to be underlying assumptions on what mental illness really is since every one has off days but it is not a normal state that a person who never experienced mental illness would understand.

Also it is not clear that the mentally ill are considered a protected class under the Equal Right Act. If this veteran did not have a service animal the owner may have been able to deny him service because of that.

The mentally ill are covered under the ADA.

Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Under Title III, no individual may be discriminated against on the basis of disability with regards to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation. "Public accommodations" include most places of lodging (such as inns and hotels), recreation, transportation, education, and dining, along with stores, care providers, and places of public displays, among other things.

The Supreme Court decided under Title II of the ADA that mental illness is a form of disability and therefore covered under the ADA, and that unjustified institutional isolation of a person with a disability is a form of discrimination because it "...perpetuates unwarranted assumptions that persons so isolated are incapable or unworthy of participating in community life." The court added, "Confinement in an institution severely diminishes the everyday life activities of individuals, including family relations, social contacts, work options, economic independence, educational advancement, and cultural enrichment."

The rest of your post is worthy of applause. There are so many people who simply do not have the first clue as to the effects of mental illness are so they call it "insanity".

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

Hatuey said:
Considering insanity is not a recognized mental illness - the only standards you're using are subjective ones. You see why I've been calling you ignorant from the beginning?

Well, thanks for your opinion, I'm sure it comes from the same place that states 'insanity' is a mental illness.

Too bad so many health care professionals disagree with you. :shrug:

Still can't grasp what PTSD is huh?

Considering all your posts have been thoroughly debunked and you've yet to provide a SINGLE source for your posts other than your nonsensical opinion, there isn't much to rebut.

Considering many blind people can and do function without service dogs, they are not necessary. Again, YOUR standards, not mine.

Considering many cripples can and do function without service dogs, again - they should no longer be considered service dogs. 2nd time your standard has backfired on you.

I'm sorry - what is that? Are you being hypocritical? Look, gays are just being self-centred scam artists who want to get tax benefits. Their feelings and mental health are irrelevant. They're just whining because they can't have it their way. :shrug:

In accordance with your argument we should just let anyone who is depressed have their pets wherever they want. They feel bad too. they might suffer the same things also. I am depressed and it would make me feel better if I could have my dog. When you abuse lines you get all sorts of people who have no business doing things playing sick so they can get away with things we normally would limit. This guy is functional without the dog and could certainly have his breakfast and then go pet his dog to feel better if he felt bad at that time at all. It is these sorts of attitudes that promote scamming and taking advantage of the system. I know it is horrible but sometime you have to say boo to these people, and to go back to your previous threat you have to get approved for a sex change operation in the US, and that involves actually living as the opposite gender for a period of time. That is for an operation paid for by the person involved which does not effect other people. This is a dog in a food prep area. A person who has changed their gender does not spread allergens, dirt, and germs all over the places you eat. Transgendered people do not violate health codes. The dog in an eating establishment does. We may make considerations for special cases like the disabled, but this guy is just a whiner. You have not proven that he has any need for this animal to be around him 24 hours a day.

Hatuey · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
In accordance with your argument we should just let anyone who is depressed

As this is not what PTSD actually is, no, you've misunderstood my argument and concocted what is called a "straw man". Moving on. Whenever you grasp on to the simple fact that PTSD is not "being sad", or "being depressed" and that is just your layman interpretation of what PTSD is, please get back to me. Until then, the rest of your post will remain a simple and ignorant opinion of what this guy can and can't do. All of which has been formed without knowing his actual mental illness condition.

However, I would like to point this out:

This is a dog in a food prep area.

Even to THIS extent, you still have no idea what it is you are discussing. The dog was in the DINING area, which is perfectly admissible by federal standards as the dog has his documentation for being a service dog. Now, that you, in your once again ignorant opinion do not consider him a service dog is a different story.

Finally,

I know it is horrible but sometime you have to say boo to these people, and to go back to your previous threat you have to get approved for a sex change operation in the US, and that involves actually living as the opposite gender for a period of time. That is for an operation paid for by the person involved which does not effect other people.

Trannies are just whiners. Persistent whiners, but whiners none the less. They expect the rest of us to make accommodations for them and even accept them as normal. They even believe their fabricated genders should be given the same respect as those naturally given to others. :shrug:

CaptainCourtesy · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
In accordance with your argument we should just let anyone who is depressed have their pets wherever they want. They feel bad too. they might suffer the same things also. I am depressed and it would make me feel better if I could have my dog. When you abuse lines you get all sorts of people who have no business doing things playing sick so they can get away with things we normally would limit. This guy is functional without the dog and could certainly have his breakfast and then go pet his dog to feel better if he felt bad at that time at all. It is these sorts of attitudes that promote scamming and taking advantage of the system.

Do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has Major Depressive Disorder? And do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has PTSD? Your comments seem to indicate that you do not, so I ask for clarification.

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

TiredOfLife said:
This has all the answers you seek: http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-a...graph-gay-wedding-violation-human-rights.html

This has to do with a Rights Act of New Mexico. This is a service that should not qualify as a public accommodation in the sense other businesses are to the public. It matters not that a gay couple eats in a restaurant or shops at a store. This occasion was a service that did cross the line since doing a photo shoot of the married couple would tactically be accepting or promoting a practice that violated the owners religious belief. Furthermore, if this is allowed what next? Would the owner be required to photograph a couple in the nude? (There are nudists you know.) What if some members of a hate group wanted the owners services? That can be very bad public relations for the owner if they must accommodate them.

I personally do not trust people in the government since after a time they stop living in the real world and live is some sort of not exactly mental state but an organizational reality space. They view reality thru what I would conceive as looking thru a broken prism. It is very distorted.

I do look thru a mental world but is my nature to do so and I do try to question my thought and beliefs which is also in my nature. I think that some of the bureaucrats would have been better served to have chosen an Art degree then they would be able to relate to the real world thru whatever art that they chose to pursue and hopefuly found a place where their understanding could grow.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

Hatuey said:
As this is not what PTSD actually is, no, you've misunderstood my argument and concocted what is called a "straw man". Moving on. Whenever you grasp on to the simple fact that PTSD is not "being sad", or "being depressed" and that is just your layman interpretation of what PTSD is, please get back to me. Until then, the rest of your post will remain a simple and ignorant opinion of what this guy can and can't do. All of which has been formed without knowing his actual mental illness condition.

But hold on, depression has physical aspects too, and it can be devastating and even cause things like suicide. Now you are the one being mean to those people with depression who are suffering from a very real condition that having their dog around while they eat breakfast might help. Unlike a blind person or a crippled person these people do not have those conditions all the time, but if one group of people has these occasional issues and you advocate for them, then why are you all of a sudden backing off with other people who have the same effects. Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.

Hatuey said:
However, I would like to point this out:

Even to THIS extent, you still have no idea what it is you are discussing. The dog was in the DINING area, which is perfectly admissible by federal standards as the dog has his documentation for being a service dog. Now, that you, in your once again ignorant opinion do not consider him a service dog is a different story.

Finally,

Trannies are just whiners. Persistent whiners, but whiners none the less. :shrug:

Then why do we even have that health code? If it is perfectly safe why are there health codes to begin with?

CaptainCourtesy · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
But hold on, depression has physical aspects too, and it can be devastating and even cause things like suicide. Now you are the one being mean to those people with depression who are suffering from a very real condition that having their dog around while they eat breakfast might help. Unlike a blind person or a crippled person these people do not have those conditions all the time, but if one group of people has these occasional issues and you advocate for them, then why are you all of a sudden backing off with other people who have the same effects. Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.

Depression does not manifest itself with the same set of symptoms as PTSD. There are some similarities, but there are also some distinct differences. Also, there is a difference between being depressed and suffering from one of the diagnoses that I indicated in my previous post. If one is discussing Major Depressive Disorder, for example, we are not talking about occasional symptoms. The symptoms are perpetual; their severity and impact on functioning may be more intermittent.

Hatuey · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
But hold on, depression has physical aspects too, and it can be devastating and even cause things like suicide. Now you are the one being mean to those people with depression who are suffering from a very real condition that having their dog around while they eat breakfast might help.

You do realize that "being depressed" is not in and of itself a mental illness, yes? I REALLY hope you do. It'll help you not come up with more asinine posts.

Unlike a blind person or a crippled person these people do not have those conditions all the time

Is THAT so?

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) : The Facts : ReachOut.com USA

the distress following a traumatic event doesn’t go away and interferes with important areas of their normal everyday functioning. In these cases, it’s no longer considered a normal response to trauma, and a mental health professional should evaluate for a possible diagnosis of PTSD.

,

but if one group of people has these occasional issues and you advocate for them, then why are you all of a sudden backing off with other people who have the same effects. Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.

No, it does not. Some symptoms with some depressive mental illnesses overlap, but they do not manifest with the same symptoms. That's just more of your ignorant posting. I already called you out on this lie when you posted it a few pages ago. Why post it again? Does depression manifest itself in flashbacks?

Then why do we even have that health code? If it is perfectly safe why are there health codes to begin with?

You being caught in a bull**** lie is not my problem. Please tell us all about how this dog was in a food preparation area again?

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

CaptainCourtesy said:
Do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has Major Depressive Disorder? And do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has PTSD? Your comments seem to indicate that you do not, so I ask for clarification.

So, are there not levels of PTSD that range from a person being functional with need for some counseling, to a person who is in need of institutionalization? It is the same with depression. If this guy can litterally not eat breakfast without his freakout dog then perhaps he is at a high level of PTSD where he needs institutional supervision. I think reasonable people will find this guy is pretty damned level headed most times. He is probably quite functional. He may need to take some time to compose himself if he gets an attack. This is probably not some skitzo shellshocked guy who is ducking under tables because he hears bombers overhead. He can deal with a voluntary act of going to breakfast at a restaurant and go see his dog after without any problem at all. The worst that will happen for this guy is he gets worked up and feels bad. There are two year olds who get worked up and feel bad in restaurants also, and they cannot help themselves either. I bet in those cases you could bring in a dog for them to play with and they would calm down too. So why don't we allow that everywhere?

Let us go down another road. Smoking is a habit people say relaxes them and soothes them. Should we let PTSD people smoke in restaurants when there is no smoking? It might actually help them to feel better given tobacco does effect brain chemistry. You wouldn't want him to freak out. Maybe we should let him smoke some pot, or perhaps he can snort some cocaine? Those will make him feel better too. Why even have any of these rules? Rules prevent us from doing what we want and make us all feel bad. This guy feels really bad so much so we don't want to bother him with the rules or he goes into a fit on the floor and has an attack. You know what I call going into a fit when you cannot bring your dog into a restaurant? I call it a tantrum. When you are a kid you get some discipline for that so you learn to control yourself. When you are an adult and still cannot control yourself from having tantrums we put you in an institution because you need help. If he is so desperate for that dog an institution can provide the individual care he needs so he can have his doggie. So if he needs his dog that much he has a place.

The rest of us have rules because it is just impossible to cater to everyone all at once. Those rules come in the form of health codes sometimes. We all do not have tantrums because our dog cannot be with us at breakfast because we know the reality is that if we allowed it the place would be covered in pet hair with piss and crap all over the place and it would be thick from multiple pet owners. He can deal just like the rest of us, and if he cannot he can go to the institution.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

CaptainCourtesy said:
Depression does not manifest itself with the same set of symptoms as PTSD. There are some similarities, but there are also some distinct differences. Also, there is a difference between being depressed and suffering from one of the diagnoses that I indicated in my previous post. If one is discussing Major Depressive Disorder, for example, we are not talking about occasional symptoms. The symptoms are perpetual; their severity and impact on functioning may be more intermittent.

Ok, what symptoms are different? In all honesty I have never heard the two have differing symptoms. I am not saying they are the same, but their manifestation on the physical operation of a person overlaps. I am also not talking case by case. Overall possible symptoms for both are pretty close.

Also, you are not addressing the reality that I have accepted and am aware of the difference in depression diagnosis. The reality is that to an extent both depression and PTSD type of feelings are normal. We all deal with issues of being depressed, and we all deal with traumatic experiences which might even cripple us for a time with physical pain. There is a range. What i am saying is that if this guy were in that level where he is not functional which becomes a clinical level of a medical problem he would need more continuous medical attention. Think about what I am saying. breakfast is something you do every day and it lasts about an hour at most at a restaurant. That is an hour where the guy needs to be able to sit down and eat food. What you are trying to say is this guy is so severe that within that hour he is going to require the calming capabilities of the dog because he is going to have a debilitating attack he cannot get through on his own. That is a serious problem if that is the case. That sort of person should not be driving on the road. That is the sort of person who we all need to be aware of because that person needs help.

I am not saying he is that level. I do not think he is. If that sort of person was around me and needed their dog I would help them get it. I would also recognize that person needs a more controlled environment where they can be helped. If he is not of that level and is perfectly capable of getting through breakfast without a debilitating attack he does not need the dog. It may be a really big want, and it may be extremely stressful for him not to have it, but then he has to alter his behavior and eat at home.

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
That is nice and all, and that is pretty much feeling bad.

Felling bad? From the symptoms I get that he experiences terror essensally he is in a flight or fight mode. And this can occur for no discernible reason.

Those are feelings you know, and they would appear to be negative ones hence the bad.

Oh, it is just "feelings. In actuality all mental illness is due to neurology or neruro-chemistry in the brain is not working properly and much of this is due in some way due to a brain that has suffered damage thru experience on some neurological level. Incidentally since you mentioned "sad" Depression has been shown to be caused by neuroligical damage in the frontal cortex. This essensally means that most mental illnesses are actually physcal damage to structures in the brain or mal-adaptations in the process of neuro -chemistry.

Now that you have done all of this can you explain to me how a dog stops most of them? Does the dog have an infaltable shrink couch he carries around so he can address the trauma when it occurs? Does he have a drum of anti-psychotics to drink out of when the guy startys getting all panicky? Does the dog jump on him and give him a relaxing massage when he starts to fell these feelings? In case he falls asleep at the table was the dog trained at the inception school for dream intervention to come in and rescue him from his nightmare? I am all for shrink, and meds, and counseling to help, but the owner was right. If you cannot handle eating breakfast without a freakout perhaps you need a bit more than a dog.

It was mentioned in the article that the dog recognizes that he is about to go into a panic attack and then places its upper body against the chest this would be enough for the PTS vet to brace for the panic attack and would not act out.

CaptainCourtesy · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
So, are there not levels of PTSD that range from a person being functional with need for some counseling, to a person who is in need of institutionalization? It is the same with depression. If this guy can litterally not eat breakfast without his freakout dog then perhaps he is at a high level of PTSD where he needs institutional supervision. I think reasonable people will find this guy is pretty damned level headed most times. He is probably quite functional. He may need to take some time to compose himself if he gets an attack. This is probably not some skitzo shellshocked guy who is ducking under tables because he hears bombers overhead. He can deal with a voluntary act of going to breakfast at a restaurant and go see his dog after without any problem at all. The worst that will happen for this guy is he gets worked up and feels bad. There are two year olds who get worked up and feel bad in restaurants also, and they cannot help themselves either. I bet in those cases you could bring in a dog for them to play with and they would calm down too. So why don't we allow that everywhere?

One's functionality is not black or white... either functional or needing to be institutionalized. General standards dictate that one be placed in the least resistive environment that meets ones functional level. You are making a whole lot of assumptions about this individual without knowing the details or severity of his disorder. The fact that he CAN function with assistance proves that he does not need to be hospitalized.

Let us go down another road. Smoking is a habit people say relaxes them and soothes them. Should we let PTSD people smoke in restaurants when there is no smoking? It might actually help them to feel better given tobacco does effect brain chemistry. You wouldn't want him to freak out. Maybe we should let him smoke some pot, or perhaps he can snort some cocaine? Those will make him feel better too. Why even have any of these rules?

These are all false equivalencies. There is a difference between taking a mind altering substance proven to cause harm and using a comfort technique that is proven not to.

Rules prevent us from doing what we want and make us all feel bad. This guy feels really bad so much so we don't want to bother him with the rules or he goes into a fit on the floor and has an attack. You know what I call going into a fit when you cannot bring your dog into a restaurant? I call it a tantrum. When you are a kid you get some discipline for that so you learn to control yourself. When you are an adult and still cannot control yourself from having tantrums we put you in an institution because you need help. If he is so desperate for that dog an institution can provide the individual care he needs so he can have his doggie. So if he needs his dog that much he has a place.

This just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder.

The rest of us have rules because it is just impossible to cater to everyone all at once. Those rules come in the form of health codes sometimes. We all do not have tantrums because our dog cannot be with us at breakfast because we know the reality is that if we allowed it the place would be covered in pet hair with piss and crap all over the place and it would be thick from multiple pet owners. He can deal just like the rest of us, and if he cannot he can go to the institution.

As I said, this just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder or general standards of care. You might want to learn something about these issues.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

Hatuey said:
You do realize that "being depressed" is not in and of itself a mental illness, yes? I REALLY hope you do. It'll help you not come up with more asinine posts.

Actually depression is a mental condition that can manifest itself with many physical problems. Also, some people have a neurochemical imballance which makes them perpetually depressed and incapable of coming out of it naturally. If you are arguing depression cannot be crippling you are the poorly informed one.

Hatuey said:
Is THAT so?

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) : The Facts : ReachOut.com USA

In a functional patient (which is what you are when you are outside of the institution) those symptoms are not always present. You are arguing that a low end PTSD subject should be treated as if they had a high level dysfunction. yes, those things are possible, but this guy is not exhibiting them, and (My opinion) he would probably be tempted to hit you if you suggested he had that sort of problem. Really, if you go up to a blind person and tell them they are blind they simply regard it as fact. You go up to this guy and tell him he is unable to operate without his dog and he is going to get pissed most likely.

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Hatuey said:
No, it does not. Some symptoms with some depressive mental illnesses overlap, but they do not manifest with the same symptoms. That's just more of your ignorant posting. I already called you out on this lie when you posted it a few pages ago. Why post it again? Does depression manifest itself in flashbacks?

You being caught in a bull**** lie is not my problem. Please tell us all about how this dog was in a food preparation area again?

You are taking this pretty personally at this point. I am pretty good with saying this guy can operate fine without his dog for the time he goes out to eat. Not to mention, there are options for him if he feels the need. Nothing stops him from using a drive through, finding a place where pets can be, or fixing his own. If the health codes exist for a reason, I do not see any reason to make an exception in his case. Hell, I do not even see any reason for the diner to allow his dog in even if there are no health code violations. I do not mind the dog being a therapy thing, but calling it a service dog lowers the standard way too far and in this case works against health codes.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

Shadow Serious said:
Felling bad? From the symptoms I get that he experiences terror essensally he is in a flight or fight mode. And this can occur for no discernible reason.

Sounds like feeling bad to me. Bad is a pretty large umbrella. You are just putting a specific to the feeling.

Shadow Serious said:
Oh, it is just "feelings. In actuality all mental illness is due to neurology or neruro-chemistry in the brain is not working properly and much of this is due in some way due to a brain that has suffered damage thru experience on some neurological level. Incidentally since you mentioned "sad" Depression has been shown to be caused by neuroligical damage in the frontal cortex. This essensally means that most mental illnesses are actually physcal damage to structures in the brain or mal-adaptations in the process of neuro -chemistry.

And in what way does the dog electrochemically protect his brain? Now you are putting the dog in a place where it does not belong. The dog is not a chemical taken to correct those balances. The dog merely comforts the subject and allows them to procede through their symptoms. The PTSD is still going on. No one has said that having a dog around causes the electrochemical content of the brain to be different.

Shadow Serious said:
It was mentioned in the article that the dog recognizes that he is about to go into a panic attack and then places its upper body against the chest this would be enough for the PTS vet to brace for the panic attack and would not act out.

That is not actually stopping the attack. That is merely stopping the symptoms.

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
No one is saying otlaw the pet so your argument is invalid. They are just saying the pet is not allowed in a restaurant, and is not a service dog. if he wants to own a pet because it makes him feel better about things then that seems to be very legal. Obey the same rules as a pet owner. Oh, and quit comparing apples and oranges simply because you have no argument.

The problem the Government says otherwise. I'll point out I do not trust the Government but in this case I believe they have a point and I have to go down on the side of the vet. Not all strategies for mental health are going to be medicine and counseling. Sometimes a solution appears unnecessary to those who base their opinions on what is physically visible and they do not see that there is a need that is hidden. Keep in mind there is still a blindness with mental illness to some extent and people do not understand what mental illness is. Furthermore, they may believe it is psychosomatic.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

CaptainCourtesy said:
One's functionality is not black or white... either functional or needing to be institutionalized. General standards dictate that one be placed in the least resistive environment that meets ones functional level. You are making a whole lot of assumptions about this individual without knowing the details or severity of his disorder. The fact that he CAN function with assistance proves that he does not need to be hospitalized.

Yes, I know it is not black and white, but there is a threshold which not being able to get through breakfast without a freakout would cross. You are talking at the most an hour of eating. People tend to find that sort of thing relaxing even so this is something that should not be a problem with an outpatient.

CaptainCourtesy said:
These are all false equivalencies. There is a difference between taking a mind altering substance proven to cause harm and using a comfort technique that is proven not to.

Actually dogs and smoking are banned for similar reasons. Good of you to wander into that one. I can't smoke, but I could take nicotine through gum, transdermal patch, and chewing or snorting. Smoking is just very convenient and also the act of smoking is relaxing like a technique. It is one of the reasons why it is not just as easy as giving a person some nicotine to stop them from smoking. Also there has been therapeutic use of smoking. Really, what you are talking about is something that has altered the mind. PTSD has altered the operation of the mind. If the dog is not mind altering then it isn't doing anything. before you go there I understand how the dog thing works, but I am just pointing out you just trashed your own argument.

CaptainCourtesy said:
This just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder.

Actually I am not really arguing against the disorder. You guys have been setting up that argument all along. I never said PTSD doesn't exist or that it could not lead to some very traumatic problems. I am saying this guy is full of crap. I know it would be really awesome for you if I were arguing PTSD doesn't exist. I assume that is why everyone keeps going there because suck it up is pretty reasonable with this guy as an individual. While you are putting the entirety of PTSD on trial, I am merely looking at this incident.

CaptainCourtesy said:
As I said, this just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder or general standards of care. You might want to learn something about these issues.

You can try to argue the greater issue of the existence of PTSD, but no one has argued against that. What has been said is you can eat breakfast without your dog if you go to a restaurant if your PTSD and suck it up, and if you cannot get that far you should either not eat out, or check into a place where they can give you the specialized care you require.

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

MadLib said:
I'd actually prefer a system in which there were no political parties. Vote for a person based on his own merits and beliefs, not based on whether or not there is a "D" or an "R" next to his name.

Or "L" or "G" or"C".

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

tererun said:
Where did you get that one from? He has the right to do it without legal consequences if it is not within the law. There is no right to not suffer the social consequences of your actions. They are well within their rights to complain, boycott, and make a huge issue out of it, as long as it is true.

Your position can only be held as valid if you are also against coverage of other disabilities.

tererun · Aug 30, 2013

Shadow Serious said:
Your position can only be held as valid if you are also against coverage of other disabilities.

Not true, you would like it that way because an absolute like that would make your argument much easier, but he can be a scammer playing the system while others can legitimately have a need for things like service dogs. They are not mutually exclusive.

Shadow Serious · Aug 30, 2013

Baralis said:
I do not feel that business owners should ever be forced to serve anyone they do not wish to conduct business with regardless of the reason no matter how absurd.

I do approve of your opinion but if there is one group of people that would need special considerations it would be those who are handicapped. All people who are handicapped have experienced periods of discrimination and that includes those who had physical that is visible disabilities. All other people who would suffer refusal of service are more able than one who has a handicap especially those who have a mental illness to get service at another establishment that would service them.

Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

Hatuey

Rule of Two

tererun

Hatuey

Rule of Two

Baralis

Shadow Serious

Hatuey

Rule of Two

tererun

Hatuey

Rule of Two

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Shadow Serious

tererun

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Hatuey

Rule of Two

tererun

tererun

Shadow Serious

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

tererun

tererun

Shadow Serious

tererun

Shadow Serious

Shadow Serious

tererun

Shadow Serious