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Thread: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Where did you get that one from? He has the right to do it without legal consequences if it is not within the law. There is no right to not suffer the social consequences of your actions. They are well within their rights to complain, boycott, and make a huge issue out of it, as long as it is true.
    You read that backwards. I saying that until the law is changed this gentleman has the right to bring his dog into restaurants. The moron does NOT have the right to discriminate against him.

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    You read that backwards. I saying that until the law is changed this gentleman has the right to bring his dog into restaurants. The moron does NOT have the right to discriminate against him.
    I thought I made another post in the confusion. Way back when i wrote that comment I got mixed up in this situation and the one where there were a bunch of blacks tossed out of a chicken place. I agree the law is on the side of the man based on the anti-discrimination laws set down for the handicapped. I think the man is a scammer and is taking from the goodwill of others, but just like a healthy person with a handicapped tag, and people with very questionable disabilities he is milking the system.

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    According to state and local laws where this resturant is located, are PTSD dogs exempted? If they're not, the manager was simply covering his ass.
    Since PTSD dogs are still considered service dogs, business owners still have to let them in.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    How do I know it is a scam? The dog does not do anything. It is a dog.
    The entirety of the psychiatric community seems to disagree with you on that
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The entirety of the psychiatric community seems to disagree with you on that
    Yeah, because shrinks are not making their own work at this point.

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Yeah, because shrinks are not making their own work at this point.
    I probably agree with you about shrinks exaggerating and overdiagnosing some mental illnesses (ADD/ADHD, for example) in order to satisfy their pharmaceutical sponsors. However, I don't think there are massive dog corporations who bribe psychiatrists and psychologists into convincing people that PTSD patients need dogs.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Neglecting to care for the PTSD that has sadly afflicted many heroic veterans is something our society should be ashamed of. PTSD is a serious condition and it is a mental illness that should be cared for and recognized compassionately, not mocked or downplayed.
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Ok, what symptoms are different? In all honesty I have never heard the two have differing symptoms. I am not saying they are the same, but their manifestation on the physical operation of a person overlaps. I am also not talking case by case. Overall possible symptoms for both are pretty close.
    These two are VERY different disorders. Though PTSD can manifest itself with depression, there are lots of other very specific symptoms that are different. Here is the descriptor for PTSD from the DSM:

    A: Exposure to a traumatic event This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror, or helplessness (or in children, the response must involve disorganized or agitated behavior). (The DSM-IV-TR criterion differs substantially from the previous DSM-III-R stressor criterion, which specified the traumatic event should be of a type that would cause "significant symptoms of distress in almost anyone," and that the event was "outside the range of usual human experience."[83])

    B: Persistent re-experiencing One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s).

    C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing This involves a sufficient level of:

    avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s);
    avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories as well as the disturbing memories, dreams, flashbacks, and intense psychological or physiological distress;
    inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities;
    decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings;
    an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people.

    D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance. Additional symptoms include irritability, angry outbursts, increased startle response, and concentration or sleep problems.[18]

    E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.[18]

    F: Significant impairment The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".
    Notice. A triggering event is NECESSARY. This is not true for Major Depression. Here is the descriptor for that diagnosis in the DSM:

    Depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). (In children and adolescents, this may be characterized as an irritable mood.)
    Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day
    Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5 of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
    Insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
    Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day
    Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
    Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day
    Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day
    Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.
    As you can see, there are major differences in these two disorders.

    Also, you are not addressing the reality that I have accepted and am aware of the difference in depression diagnosis. The reality is that to an extent both depression and PTSD type of feelings are normal.
    No they aren't. Not to the extent that one would be diagnosed with either.

    We all deal with issues of being depressed, and we all deal with traumatic experiences which might even cripple us for a time with physical pain. There is a range. What i am saying is that if this guy were in that level where he is not functional which becomes a clinical level of a medical problem he would need more continuous medical attention.
    My guess is that he IS under medical attention, but again, there are many levels of medical attention that one can have.

    Think about what I am saying. breakfast is something you do every day and it lasts about an hour at most at a restaurant. That is an hour where the guy needs to be able to sit down and eat food. What you are trying to say is this guy is so severe that within that hour he is going to require the calming capabilities of the dog because he is going to have a debilitating attack he cannot get through on his own. That is a serious problem if that is the case. That sort of person should not be driving on the road. That is the sort of person who we all need to be aware of because that person needs help.
    You are incorrect. This individual IS getting help and is using a coping skill in order to allow him to function far better than he could without the coping skill. He can go to a restaurant and eat breakfast and he can drive. He is using a tool, a coping skill in order to do that. The coping skill is not causing him any harm and it is effective in preventing the requirement of a higher level of care.

    I am not saying he is that level. I do not think he is. If that sort of person was around me and needed their dog I would help them get it. I would also recognize that person needs a more controlled environment where they can be helped. If he is not of that level and is perfectly capable of getting through breakfast without a debilitating attack he does not need the dog. It may be a really big want, and it may be extremely stressful for him not to have it, but then he has to alter his behavior and eat at home.
    No, he does not. He is using an effective coping skill to manage his PTSD, allowing him to function better than if he did not use the skill. This is the goal of therapy and the treatment of psychological disorders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Yes, I know it is not black and white, but there is a threshold which not being able to get through breakfast without a freakout would cross. You are talking at the most an hour of eating. People tend to find that sort of thing relaxing even so this is something that should not be a problem with an outpatient.
    And he now has a coping skill that allows him to make it through an hour of eating. Problem solved.

    Actually dogs and smoking are banned for similar reasons. Good of you to wander into that one. I can't smoke, but I could take nicotine through gum, transdermal patch, and chewing or snorting. Smoking is just very convenient and also the act of smoking is relaxing like a technique. It is one of the reasons why it is not just as easy as giving a person some nicotine to stop them from smoking. Also there has been therapeutic use of smoking. Really, what you are talking about is something that has altered the mind. PTSD has altered the operation of the mind. If the dog is not mind altering then it isn't doing anything. before you go there I understand how the dog thing works, but I am just pointing out you just trashed your own argument.
    No, I supported my argument and your next to last line in the above trashed yours. In fact, you pretty much admitted it. The use of a service dog is not mind altering BY A SUBSTANCE. Smoking is.

    Actually I am not really arguing against the disorder. You guys have been setting up that argument all along. I never said PTSD doesn't exist or that it could not lead to some very traumatic problems. I am saying this guy is full of crap. I know it would be really awesome for you if I were arguing PTSD doesn't exist. I assume that is why everyone keeps going there because suck it up is pretty reasonable with this guy as an individual. While you are putting the entirety of PTSD on trial, I am merely looking at this incident.
    This is YOUR straw man, not mine. I have never argued that you believe that PTSD doesn't exist. I HAVE argued that PTSD and Major Depression are not the same, something that you have claimed. Your belief that this guy "is full of crap" has no standing and you haven't even come close to proving this.

    You can try to argue the greater issue of the existence of PTSD, but no one has argued against that. What has been said is you can eat breakfast without your dog if you go to a restaurant if your PTSD and suck it up, and if you cannot get that far you should either not eat out, or check into a place where they can give you the specialized care you require.
    As I said, that is YOUR straw man argument. I have not claimed that you do not believe that PTSD exists. I HAVE claimed that you do not understand how PTSD and Major Depression are different... and followed up with PROVING that you don't know that the two are different my demonstrating how they are. Further, I have also demonstrated how your assessment on what this guy can handle, how, and what this means is completely wrong. In other words, I have demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Since PTSD dogs are still considered service dogs, business owners still have to let them in.
    Actually, this is a murky area. In the past, PTSD dogs were NOT considered service dogs, but are considered "support" or "comfort" dogs. Because of this, they are excluded from the laws that govern service animals and business owners do NOT have to let them in. However, if the individual has a letter from a licensed psychological provider showing justification, the animal may then be allowed. I have done this for clients on a few occasions.

    However, on doing some further research on this, it does appear that a dog can be defined as a service dog in cases of PTSD. There is some very specific training that the dogs go through (key component for the dog to be defined as a service dog). For example, dogs being trained to prevent crowding (something that often triggers a PTSD attack) is one skill that the dog learns. Another is to alert the individual to people coming from behind him.

    This is still a murky area, and the research as to the efficacy of service dogs for PTSD is not conclusive. In fact, the VA cut funding for PTSD service dogs about a year ago because of the inconclusive evidence in this area. Doesn't mean that they are not helpful; just means that the research isn't conclusive as of yet.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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