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Thread: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

  1. #141
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    That is nice and all, and that is pretty much feeling bad.
    Felling bad? From the symptoms I get that he experiences terror essensally he is in a flight or fight mode. And this can occur for no discernible reason.

    Those are feelings you know, and they would appear to be negative ones hence the bad.
    Oh, it is just "feelings. In actuality all mental illness is due to neurology or neruro-chemistry in the brain is not working properly and much of this is due in some way due to a brain that has suffered damage thru experience on some neurological level. Incidentally since you mentioned "sad" Depression has been shown to be caused by neuroligical damage in the frontal cortex. This essensally means that most mental illnesses are actually physcal damage to structures in the brain or mal-adaptations in the process of neuro -chemistry.

    Now that you have done all of this can you explain to me how a dog stops most of them? Does the dog have an infaltable shrink couch he carries around so he can address the trauma when it occurs? Does he have a drum of anti-psychotics to drink out of when the guy startys getting all panicky? Does the dog jump on him and give him a relaxing massage when he starts to fell these feelings? In case he falls asleep at the table was the dog trained at the inception school for dream intervention to come in and rescue him from his nightmare? I am all for shrink, and meds, and counseling to help, but the owner was right. If you cannot handle eating breakfast without a freakout perhaps you need a bit more than a dog.
    It was mentioned in the article that the dog recognizes that he is about to go into a panic attack and then places its upper body against the chest this would be enough for the PTS vet to brace for the panic attack and would not act out.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    So, are there not levels of PTSD that range from a person being functional with need for some counseling, to a person who is in need of institutionalization? It is the same with depression. If this guy can litterally not eat breakfast without his freakout dog then perhaps he is at a high level of PTSD where he needs institutional supervision. I think reasonable people will find this guy is pretty damned level headed most times. He is probably quite functional. He may need to take some time to compose himself if he gets an attack. This is probably not some skitzo shellshocked guy who is ducking under tables because he hears bombers overhead. He can deal with a voluntary act of going to breakfast at a restaurant and go see his dog after without any problem at all. The worst that will happen for this guy is he gets worked up and feels bad. There are two year olds who get worked up and feel bad in restaurants also, and they cannot help themselves either. I bet in those cases you could bring in a dog for them to play with and they would calm down too. So why don't we allow that everywhere?
    One's functionality is not black or white... either functional or needing to be institutionalized. General standards dictate that one be placed in the least resistive environment that meets ones functional level. You are making a whole lot of assumptions about this individual without knowing the details or severity of his disorder. The fact that he CAN function with assistance proves that he does not need to be hospitalized.

    Let us go down another road. Smoking is a habit people say relaxes them and soothes them. Should we let PTSD people smoke in restaurants when there is no smoking? It might actually help them to feel better given tobacco does effect brain chemistry. You wouldn't want him to freak out. Maybe we should let him smoke some pot, or perhaps he can snort some cocaine? Those will make him feel better too. Why even have any of these rules?
    These are all false equivalencies. There is a difference between taking a mind altering substance proven to cause harm and using a comfort technique that is proven not to.

    Rules prevent us from doing what we want and make us all feel bad. This guy feels really bad so much so we don't want to bother him with the rules or he goes into a fit on the floor and has an attack. You know what I call going into a fit when you cannot bring your dog into a restaurant? I call it a tantrum. When you are a kid you get some discipline for that so you learn to control yourself. When you are an adult and still cannot control yourself from having tantrums we put you in an institution because you need help. If he is so desperate for that dog an institution can provide the individual care he needs so he can have his doggie. So if he needs his dog that much he has a place.
    This just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder.

    The rest of us have rules because it is just impossible to cater to everyone all at once. Those rules come in the form of health codes sometimes. We all do not have tantrums because our dog cannot be with us at breakfast because we know the reality is that if we allowed it the place would be covered in pet hair with piss and crap all over the place and it would be thick from multiple pet owners. He can deal just like the rest of us, and if he cannot he can go to the institution.
    As I said, this just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder or general standards of care. You might want to learn something about these issues.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You do realize that "being depressed" is not in and of itself a mental illness, yes? I REALLY hope you do. It'll help you not come up with more asinine posts.
    Actually depression is a mental condition that can manifest itself with many physical problems. Also, some people have a neurochemical imballance which makes them perpetually depressed and incapable of coming out of it naturally. If you are arguing depression cannot be crippling you are the poorly informed one.

    In a functional patient (which is what you are when you are outside of the institution) those symptoms are not always present. You are arguing that a low end PTSD subject should be treated as if they had a high level dysfunction. yes, those things are possible, but this guy is not exhibiting them, and (My opinion) he would probably be tempted to hit you if you suggested he had that sort of problem. Really, if you go up to a blind person and tell them they are blind they simply regard it as fact. You go up to this guy and tell him he is unable to operate without his dog and he is going to get pissed most likely.



    ,
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post

    No, it does not. Some symptoms with some depressive mental illnesses overlap, but they do not manifest with the same symptoms. That's just more of your ignorant posting. I already called you out on this lie when you posted it a few pages ago. Why post it again? Does depression manifest itself in flashbacks?



    You being caught in a bull**** lie is not my problem. Please tell us all about how this dog was in a food preparation area again?
    You are taking this pretty personally at this point. I am pretty good with saying this guy can operate fine without his dog for the time he goes out to eat. Not to mention, there are options for him if he feels the need. Nothing stops him from using a drive through, finding a place where pets can be, or fixing his own. If the health codes exist for a reason, I do not see any reason to make an exception in his case. Hell, I do not even see any reason for the diner to allow his dog in even if there are no health code violations. I do not mind the dog being a therapy thing, but calling it a service dog lowers the standard way too far and in this case works against health codes.

  4. #144
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Felling bad? From the symptoms I get that he experiences terror essensally he is in a flight or fight mode. And this can occur for no discernible reason.
    Sounds like feeling bad to me. Bad is a pretty large umbrella. You are just putting a specific to the feeling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Oh, it is just "feelings. In actuality all mental illness is due to neurology or neruro-chemistry in the brain is not working properly and much of this is due in some way due to a brain that has suffered damage thru experience on some neurological level. Incidentally since you mentioned "sad" Depression has been shown to be caused by neuroligical damage in the frontal cortex. This essensally means that most mental illnesses are actually physcal damage to structures in the brain or mal-adaptations in the process of neuro -chemistry.
    And in what way does the dog electrochemically protect his brain? Now you are putting the dog in a place where it does not belong. The dog is not a chemical taken to correct those balances. The dog merely comforts the subject and allows them to procede through their symptoms. The PTSD is still going on. No one has said that having a dog around causes the electrochemical content of the brain to be different.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    It was mentioned in the article that the dog recognizes that he is about to go into a panic attack and then places its upper body against the chest this would be enough for the PTS vet to brace for the panic attack and would not act out.
    That is not actually stopping the attack. That is merely stopping the symptoms.

  5. #145
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    No one is saying otlaw the pet so your argument is invalid. They are just saying the pet is not allowed in a restaurant, and is not a service dog. if he wants to own a pet because it makes him feel better about things then that seems to be very legal. Obey the same rules as a pet owner. Oh, and quit comparing apples and oranges simply because you have no argument.
    The problem the Government says otherwise. I'll point out I do not trust the Government but in this case I believe they have a point and I have to go down on the side of the vet. Not all strategies for mental health are going to be medicine and counseling. Sometimes a solution appears unnecessary to those who base their opinions on what is physically visible and they do not see that there is a need that is hidden. Keep in mind there is still a blindness with mental illness to some extent and people do not understand what mental illness is. Furthermore, they may believe it is psychosomatic.
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  6. #146
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    One's functionality is not black or white... either functional or needing to be institutionalized. General standards dictate that one be placed in the least resistive environment that meets ones functional level. You are making a whole lot of assumptions about this individual without knowing the details or severity of his disorder. The fact that he CAN function with assistance proves that he does not need to be hospitalized.
    Yes, I know it is not black and white, but there is a threshold which not being able to get through breakfast without a freakout would cross. You are talking at the most an hour of eating. People tend to find that sort of thing relaxing even so this is something that should not be a problem with an outpatient.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    These are all false equivalencies. There is a difference between taking a mind altering substance proven to cause harm and using a comfort technique that is proven not to.
    Actually dogs and smoking are banned for similar reasons. Good of you to wander into that one. I can't smoke, but I could take nicotine through gum, transdermal patch, and chewing or snorting. Smoking is just very convenient and also the act of smoking is relaxing like a technique. It is one of the reasons why it is not just as easy as giving a person some nicotine to stop them from smoking. Also there has been therapeutic use of smoking. Really, what you are talking about is something that has altered the mind. PTSD has altered the operation of the mind. If the dog is not mind altering then it isn't doing anything. before you go there I understand how the dog thing works, but I am just pointing out you just trashed your own argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder.
    Actually I am not really arguing against the disorder. You guys have been setting up that argument all along. I never said PTSD doesn't exist or that it could not lead to some very traumatic problems. I am saying this guy is full of crap. I know it would be really awesome for you if I were arguing PTSD doesn't exist. I assume that is why everyone keeps going there because suck it up is pretty reasonable with this guy as an individual. While you are putting the entirety of PTSD on trial, I am merely looking at this incident.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    As I said, this just demonstrates that you do not understand the disorder or general standards of care. You might want to learn something about these issues.
    You can try to argue the greater issue of the existence of PTSD, but no one has argued against that. What has been said is you can eat breakfast without your dog if you go to a restaurant if your PTSD and suck it up, and if you cannot get that far you should either not eat out, or check into a place where they can give you the specialized care you require.

  7. #147
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I'd actually prefer a system in which there were no political parties. Vote for a person based on his own merits and beliefs, not based on whether or not there is a "D" or an "R" next to his name.
    Or "L" or "G" or"C".
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Where did you get that one from? He has the right to do it without legal consequences if it is not within the law. There is no right to not suffer the social consequences of your actions. They are well within their rights to complain, boycott, and make a huge issue out of it, as long as it is true.
    Your position can only be held as valid if you are also against coverage of other disabilities.
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Your position can only be held as valid if you are also against coverage of other disabilities.

    Not true, you would like it that way because an absolute like that would make your argument much easier, but he can be a scammer playing the system while others can legitimately have a need for things like service dogs. They are not mutually exclusive.

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I do not feel that business owners should ever be forced to serve anyone they do not wish to conduct business with regardless of the reason no matter how absurd.
    I do approve of your opinion but if there is one group of people that would need special considerations it would be those who are handicapped. All people who are handicapped have experienced periods of discrimination and that includes those who had physical that is visible disabilities. All other people who would suffer refusal of service are more able than one who has a handicap especially those who have a mental illness to get service at another establishment that would service them.
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