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Thread: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

  1. #131
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Libertarians do not support racism but support an owner having control of his own property. That said it is the law that people with service animals are to be allowed to bring them in a restaurant since it is necessary to compensate for their disability. Unfortunately, there is great fear of people with mental illness and it is possible that the owner of that establishment was acting on the fear. Also he may loathe people who are mentally ill either due thinking them are weak or just pretending for what ever preconceived reason the man may come up with.

    I will say this much that the mentally ill still suffer stigma in society still though not as badly as it was in the past. However it is not a topic that those who suffer mental illness will want to be open with generally. While the general population is aware to an extent that mental illness is something one cannot will themselves to mental health, there seem to be underlying assumptions on what mental illness really is since every one has off days but it is not a normal state that a person who never experienced mental illness would understand.

    Also it is not clear that the mentally ill are considered a protected class under the Equal Right Act. If this veteran did not have a service animal the owner may have been able to deny him service because of that.
    The mentally ill are covered under the ADA.

    Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Under Title III, no individual may be discriminated against on the basis of disability with regards to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation. "Public accommodations" include most places of lodging (such as inns and hotels), recreation, transportation, education, and dining, along with stores, care providers, and places of public displays, among other things.
    The Supreme Court decided under Title II of the ADA that mental illness is a form of disability and therefore covered under the ADA, and that unjustified institutional isolation of a person with a disability is a form of discrimination because it "...perpetuates unwarranted assumptions that persons so isolated are incapable or unworthy of participating in community life." The court added, "Confinement in an institution severely diminishes the everyday life activities of individuals, including family relations, social contacts, work options, economic independence, educational advancement, and cultural enrichment."
    The rest of your post is worthy of applause. There are so many people who simply do not have the first clue as to the effects of mental illness are so they call it "insanity".
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Considering insanity is not a recognized mental illness - the only standards you're using are subjective ones. You see why I've been calling you ignorant from the beginning?



    Well, thanks for your opinion, I'm sure it comes from the same place that states 'insanity' is a mental illness.



    Too bad so many health care professionals disagree with you.



    Still can't grasp what PTSD is huh?



    Considering all your posts have been thoroughly debunked and you've yet to provide a SINGLE source for your posts other than your nonsensical opinion, there isn't much to rebut.



    Considering many blind people can and do function without service dogs, they are not necessary. Again, YOUR standards, not mine.



    Considering many cripples can and do function without service dogs, again - they should no longer be considered service dogs. 2nd time your standard has backfired on you.



    I'm sorry - what is that? Are you being hypocritical? Look, gays are just being self-centred scam artists who want to get tax benefits. Their feelings and mental health are irrelevant. They're just whining because they can't have it their way.
    In accordance with your argument we should just let anyone who is depressed have their pets wherever they want. They feel bad too. they might suffer the same things also. I am depressed and it would make me feel better if I could have my dog. When you abuse lines you get all sorts of people who have no business doing things playing sick so they can get away with things we normally would limit. This guy is functional without the dog and could certainly have his breakfast and then go pet his dog to feel better if he felt bad at that time at all. It is these sorts of attitudes that promote scamming and taking advantage of the system. I know it is horrible but sometime you have to say boo to these people, and to go back to your previous threat you have to get approved for a sex change operation in the US, and that involves actually living as the opposite gender for a period of time. That is for an operation paid for by the person involved which does not effect other people. This is a dog in a food prep area. A person who has changed their gender does not spread allergens, dirt, and germs all over the places you eat. Transgendered people do not violate health codes. The dog in an eating establishment does. We may make considerations for special cases like the disabled, but this guy is just a whiner. You have not proven that he has any need for this animal to be around him 24 hours a day.

  3. #133
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    In accordance with your argument we should just let anyone who is depressed
    As this is not what PTSD actually is, no, you've misunderstood my argument and concocted what is called a "straw man". Moving on. Whenever you grasp on to the simple fact that PTSD is not "being sad", or "being depressed" and that is just your layman interpretation of what PTSD is, please get back to me. Until then, the rest of your post will remain a simple and ignorant opinion of what this guy can and can't do. All of which has been formed without knowing his actual mental illness condition.

    However, I would like to point this out:

    This is a dog in a food prep area.
    Even to THIS extent, you still have no idea what it is you are discussing. The dog was in the DINING area, which is perfectly admissible by federal standards as the dog has his documentation for being a service dog. Now, that you, in your once again ignorant opinion do not consider him a service dog is a different story.

    Finally,

    I know it is horrible but sometime you have to say boo to these people, and to go back to your previous threat you have to get approved for a sex change operation in the US, and that involves actually living as the opposite gender for a period of time. That is for an operation paid for by the person involved which does not effect other people.
    Trannies are just whiners. Persistent whiners, but whiners none the less. They expect the rest of us to make accommodations for them and even accept them as normal. They even believe their fabricated genders should be given the same respect as those naturally given to others.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-30-13 at 05:55 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    In accordance with your argument we should just let anyone who is depressed have their pets wherever they want. They feel bad too. they might suffer the same things also. I am depressed and it would make me feel better if I could have my dog. When you abuse lines you get all sorts of people who have no business doing things playing sick so they can get away with things we normally would limit. This guy is functional without the dog and could certainly have his breakfast and then go pet his dog to feel better if he felt bad at that time at all. It is these sorts of attitudes that promote scamming and taking advantage of the system.
    Do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has Major Depressive Disorder? And do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has PTSD? Your comments seem to indicate that you do not, so I ask for clarification.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOfLife View Post
    This has to do with a Rights Act of New Mexico. This is a service that should not qualify as a public accommodation in the sense other businesses are to the public. It matters not that a gay couple eats in a restaurant or shops at a store. This occasion was a service that did cross the line since doing a photo shoot of the married couple would tactically be accepting or promoting a practice that violated the owners religious belief. Furthermore, if this is allowed what next? Would the owner be required to photograph a couple in the nude? (There are nudists you know.) What if some members of a hate group wanted the owners services? That can be very bad public relations for the owner if they must accommodate them.

    I personally do not trust people in the government since after a time they stop living in the real world and live is some sort of not exactly mental state but an organizational reality space. They view reality thru what I would conceive as looking thru a broken prism. It is very distorted.

    I do look thru a mental world but is my nature to do so and I do try to question my thought and beliefs which is also in my nature. I think that some of the bureaucrats would have been better served to have chosen an Art degree then they would be able to relate to the real world thru whatever art that they chose to pursue and hopefuly found a place where their understanding could grow.
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    As this is not what PTSD actually is, no, you've misunderstood my argument and concocted what is called a "straw man". Moving on. Whenever you grasp on to the simple fact that PTSD is not "being sad", or "being depressed" and that is just your layman interpretation of what PTSD is, please get back to me. Until then, the rest of your post will remain a simple and ignorant opinion of what this guy can and can't do. All of which has been formed without knowing his actual mental illness condition.
    But hold on, depression has physical aspects too, and it can be devastating and even cause things like suicide. Now you are the one being mean to those people with depression who are suffering from a very real condition that having their dog around while they eat breakfast might help. Unlike a blind person or a crippled person these people do not have those conditions all the time, but if one group of people has these occasional issues and you advocate for them, then why are you all of a sudden backing off with other people who have the same effects. Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    However, I would like to point this out:



    Even to THIS extent, you still have no idea what it is you are discussing. The dog was in the DINING area, which is perfectly admissible by federal standards as the dog has his documentation for being a service dog. Now, that you, in your once again ignorant opinion do not consider him a service dog is a different story.

    Finally,



    Trannies are just whiners. Persistent whiners, but whiners none the less.
    Then why do we even have that health code? If it is perfectly safe why are there health codes to begin with?

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    But hold on, depression has physical aspects too, and it can be devastating and even cause things like suicide. Now you are the one being mean to those people with depression who are suffering from a very real condition that having their dog around while they eat breakfast might help. Unlike a blind person or a crippled person these people do not have those conditions all the time, but if one group of people has these occasional issues and you advocate for them, then why are you all of a sudden backing off with other people who have the same effects. Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.
    Depression does not manifest itself with the same set of symptoms as PTSD. There are some similarities, but there are also some distinct differences. Also, there is a difference between being depressed and suffering from one of the diagnoses that I indicated in my previous post. If one is discussing Major Depressive Disorder, for example, we are not talking about occasional symptoms. The symptoms are perpetual; their severity and impact on functioning may be more intermittent.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #138
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    But hold on, depression has physical aspects too, and it can be devastating and even cause things like suicide. Now you are the one being mean to those people with depression who are suffering from a very real condition that having their dog around while they eat breakfast might help.
    You do realize that "being depressed" is not in and of itself a mental illness, yes? I REALLY hope you do. It'll help you not come up with more asinine posts.

    Unlike a blind person or a crippled person these people do not have those conditions all the time
    Is THAT so?

    Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) : The Facts : ReachOut.com USA

    the distress following a traumatic event doesn’t go away and interferes with important areas of their normal everyday functioning. In these cases, it’s no longer considered a normal response to trauma, and a mental health professional should evaluate for a possible diagnosis of PTSD.
    ,
    but if one group of people has these occasional issues and you advocate for them, then why are you all of a sudden backing off with other people who have the same effects. Depression manifests with the same set of symptoms as PTSD.
    No, it does not. Some symptoms with some depressive mental illnesses overlap, but they do not manifest with the same symptoms. That's just more of your ignorant posting. I already called you out on this lie when you posted it a few pages ago. Why post it again? Does depression manifest itself in flashbacks?

    Then why do we even have that health code? If it is perfectly safe why are there health codes to begin with?
    You being caught in a bull**** lie is not my problem. Please tell us all about how this dog was in a food preparation area again?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-30-13 at 06:21 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #139
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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has Major Depressive Disorder? And do you know the difference between someone who is depressed and someone who has PTSD? Your comments seem to indicate that you do not, so I ask for clarification.
    So, are there not levels of PTSD that range from a person being functional with need for some counseling, to a person who is in need of institutionalization? It is the same with depression. If this guy can litterally not eat breakfast without his freakout dog then perhaps he is at a high level of PTSD where he needs institutional supervision. I think reasonable people will find this guy is pretty damned level headed most times. He is probably quite functional. He may need to take some time to compose himself if he gets an attack. This is probably not some skitzo shellshocked guy who is ducking under tables because he hears bombers overhead. He can deal with a voluntary act of going to breakfast at a restaurant and go see his dog after without any problem at all. The worst that will happen for this guy is he gets worked up and feels bad. There are two year olds who get worked up and feel bad in restaurants also, and they cannot help themselves either. I bet in those cases you could bring in a dog for them to play with and they would calm down too. So why don't we allow that everywhere?

    Let us go down another road. Smoking is a habit people say relaxes them and soothes them. Should we let PTSD people smoke in restaurants when there is no smoking? It might actually help them to feel better given tobacco does effect brain chemistry. You wouldn't want him to freak out. Maybe we should let him smoke some pot, or perhaps he can snort some cocaine? Those will make him feel better too. Why even have any of these rules? Rules prevent us from doing what we want and make us all feel bad. This guy feels really bad so much so we don't want to bother him with the rules or he goes into a fit on the floor and has an attack. You know what I call going into a fit when you cannot bring your dog into a restaurant? I call it a tantrum. When you are a kid you get some discipline for that so you learn to control yourself. When you are an adult and still cannot control yourself from having tantrums we put you in an institution because you need help. If he is so desperate for that dog an institution can provide the individual care he needs so he can have his doggie. So if he needs his dog that much he has a place.

    The rest of us have rules because it is just impossible to cater to everyone all at once. Those rules come in the form of health codes sometimes. We all do not have tantrums because our dog cannot be with us at breakfast because we know the reality is that if we allowed it the place would be covered in pet hair with piss and crap all over the place and it would be thick from multiple pet owners. He can deal just like the rest of us, and if he cannot he can go to the institution.

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    Re: Restaurant refuses Iraq War Veteran and service dog

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Depression does not manifest itself with the same set of symptoms as PTSD. There are some similarities, but there are also some distinct differences. Also, there is a difference between being depressed and suffering from one of the diagnoses that I indicated in my previous post. If one is discussing Major Depressive Disorder, for example, we are not talking about occasional symptoms. The symptoms are perpetual; their severity and impact on functioning may be more intermittent.
    Ok, what symptoms are different? In all honesty I have never heard the two have differing symptoms. I am not saying they are the same, but their manifestation on the physical operation of a person overlaps. I am also not talking case by case. Overall possible symptoms for both are pretty close.

    Also, you are not addressing the reality that I have accepted and am aware of the difference in depression diagnosis. The reality is that to an extent both depression and PTSD type of feelings are normal. We all deal with issues of being depressed, and we all deal with traumatic experiences which might even cripple us for a time with physical pain. There is a range. What i am saying is that if this guy were in that level where he is not functional which becomes a clinical level of a medical problem he would need more continuous medical attention. Think about what I am saying. breakfast is something you do every day and it lasts about an hour at most at a restaurant. That is an hour where the guy needs to be able to sit down and eat food. What you are trying to say is this guy is so severe that within that hour he is going to require the calming capabilities of the dog because he is going to have a debilitating attack he cannot get through on his own. That is a serious problem if that is the case. That sort of person should not be driving on the road. That is the sort of person who we all need to be aware of because that person needs help.

    I am not saying he is that level. I do not think he is. If that sort of person was around me and needed their dog I would help them get it. I would also recognize that person needs a more controlled environment where they can be helped. If he is not of that level and is perfectly capable of getting through breakfast without a debilitating attack he does not need the dog. It may be a really big want, and it may be extremely stressful for him not to have it, but then he has to alter his behavior and eat at home.

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